The deepest bass from a bookshelf?

[Joe Schmoe]

What is the deepest bass (lowest -3dB point) of any bookshelf speaker,regardless of price, and what speaker is it? The Wilson Duette does 36Hz and the Magico Mini 40Hz (I think those are the most expensive.)

 

[automagic]

definitive technology

I have been looking at Definitive Technology speakers lately. A couple that might be of interest to you would be the Promonitor 700 a little large for a bookshelf at just under 17 inches tall it claims 20Hz. The BPVX/P claims 23Hz.
Also StudioMonitor 450 at 13 inches tall claims 24Hz.

 

[gus6464]

This is more of a stand mount than a bookshelf but the VMPS go down to 22Hz +-3dB.

http://www.vmpsaudio.com/RM2.htm

 

[j_garcia]

I have been looking at Definitive Technology speakers lately. A couple that might be of interest to you would be the Promonitor 700 a little large for a bookshelf at just under 17 inches tall it claims 20Hz. The BPVX/P claims 23Hz.
Also StudioMonitor 450 at 13 inches tall claims 24Hz.

What isn't clear about Deftech's specs is that they don't tell you whether it is -6dB, -10dB or what those measurements are at all. We all know that their published specs are not conclusive and/or are optimistic at best.

NHT had the SB-3 that was -3dB at 39Hz.

 

[TLS Guy]

What is the deepest bass (lowest -3dB point) of any bookshelf speaker,regardless of price, and what speaker is it? The Wilson Duette does 36Hz and the Magico Mini 40Hz (I think those are the most expensive.)

If you want a designers perspective around 30 Hz. This is a question I have often asked myself. I often doodle for fun. I have run a lot of drivers over time. The best I can come up with is an honest 3db point of 29 Hz. Even then though, a woofer small enough to fit in an enclosure able to be classified as bookshelf is limited to an spl of about 96db below 50 Hz. Sensitivity is not spectacular, because there is an inverse relationship between flux density and low frequency extension, that really starts to bite with single smaller drivers.

Truthfully an F3 on the forties for a ported book shelf speaker ends up being more practical. An F3 in the fifties for sealed.

Don't get hung up on the F3 point. A ported enclosure has a roll off of 24 db per octave. A sealed enclosure 12 db per octave. So the sealed design with the higher F3 often has more low bass output.

 

[annunaki]

The Pinnacle BD 650 and BD 750 are good to 36hz and 34hz respectively and look really nice to boot.

 

[gus6464]

The Pinnacle BD 650 and BD 750 are good to 36hz and 34hz respectively and look really nice to boot.

Hey annukaki I was wondering how good those Pinnacle speakers are. How would you characterize their sound? Anything in particular they compare to? I mostly like smooth clean midrange without being forward or bright. Have you heard any Epos speakers like the ELS-3, M5 or M12?

 

[3db]

What is the deepest bass (lowest -3dB point) of any bookshelf speaker,regardless of price, and what speaker is it? The Wilson Duette does 36Hz and the Magico Mini 40Hz (I think those are the most expensive.)

Totem has a pair of pricey bookshelves that they claim go down to 29Hz

http://www.totemacoustic.com/us/products/compact/mani-2_signature/specifications/

 

[Joe Schmoe]

What isn't clear about Deftech's specs is that they don't tell you whether it is -6dB, -10dB or what those measurements are at all. We all know that their published specs are not conclusive and/or are optimistic at best.

NHT had the SB-3 that was -3dB at 39Hz.

Yeah, I was very suspicious about that. I like Def Tech, but their bass claims do tend to be pretty exaggerated. Also, when there are much more expensive bookshelves that don't approach 20Hz, how can theirs?
(Note: My question was more a matter of curiosity than anything. I might eventually buy new bookshelves, but that is hardly a priority. If I do buy some, my main concern will be less with ultimate extension than bass/size ratio. I love hearing amazingly big bass from a cabinet that appears too small to produce it.)

 

[fmw]

I think the answer would be whatever bookshelf speaker is supported by a subwoofer.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I think the answer would be whatever bookshelf speaker is supported by a subwoofer.

The only ting that I find attractive about (good) bookshelves is the ability to produce impressive sound from small enclosures. Adding a sub completely defeats the purpose (might as well get towers as do that.) It is only what they can do on their own that is at all relevant.
(Speaking of which, I followed the Totem link, and the Mites look tempting.)

 

[j_garcia]

The only ting that I find attractive about (good) bookshelves is the ability to produce impressive sound from small enclosures. Adding a sub completely defeats the purpose (might as well get towers as do that.) It is only what they can do on their own that is at all relevant.
(Speaking of which, I followed the Totem link, and the Mites look tempting.)

I feel the opposite - a good bookshelf with a good sub is a very good thing. You get the depth and output of the sub and let the bookshelf do its own thing as well, taking up no power trying to reproduce bass. This lets the system operate each portion of the frequency range being produced by each speaker more efficiently, along the lines of bi-amping.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have been looking at Definitive Technology speakers lately. A couple that might be of interest to you would be the Promonitor 700 a little large for a bookshelf at just under 17 inches tall it claims 20Hz. The BPVX/P claims 23Hz.
Also StudioMonitor 450 at 13 inches tall claims 24Hz.

The BPVX/P goes down to 38 Hz @ -3dB, according to Home Theater Magazine:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/compactspeakers/4/index2.html

The StudioMonitor 450 is 83 Hz @ -3dB per The Audio Critic:
http://theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_29_r.pdf

the StudioMonitor 350 is 79 Hz @ -3dB per HT Mag:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/compactspeakers/146/index1.html

The PowerMonitor 700 is 37 Hz @ -3dB per HT Mag:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/compactspeakers/98/index2.html

Bottom line: unless the speakers were measured in the exact same place by the exact same person using the exact same equipments, they will not mean much. Most 3rd party measurements will significantly differ (sometimes by 41 Hz difference) from the rated Freq. Resp. quoted by the companies.

It makes absolutely no sense that the SM450 is 83 Hz when the SM350 is 79 Hz!

The reason is because they were measured in two different places by different people using different equipments and different techniques (microphone placement, etc.).

 

[Davidt1]

The only ting that I find attractive about (good) bookshelves is the ability to produce impressive sound from small enclosures. Adding a sub completely defeats the purpose (might as well get towers as do that.) It is only what they can do on their own that is at all relevant.
(Speaking of which, I followed the Totem link, and the Mites look tempting.)

You will need a sub if you watch movies even if you have towers.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

You will need a sub if you watch movies even if you have towers.

Nothing in this thread has ever had anything to do with watching movies. I would not be the least interested in how deep bookshelves go except in a 2.0 music system.
As for needing a sub with towers, that obviously depends on the towers. My Def Tech BP10Bs most assuredly do not need a sub.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What is the deepest bass (lowest -3dB point) of any bookshelf speaker,regardless of price, and what speaker is it? The Wilson Duette does 36Hz and the Magico Mini 40Hz (I think those are the most expensive.)

Joe, they just cannot defy the laws of physics (not that I actually remember anything from Physics these days).

There is no substitute for cubic inches (that's one of the laws of physics too, right?).

They just cannot produce REAL BASS from any small cabinet no matter how much subwoofer and powered amps they put inside the little cabinet.

Take the $500 BP10B & $400 BP8B, for example. They go down to 25 Hz & 30 Hz @ -3dB according to Julian Hirsch/Stereo Review. And they don't even have a subwoofer driver! No Passive subwoofers and no active subwoofers!

Then take the $750 BPVX/P monitors with its built-in powered subwoofer; it goes down to 38 Hz @ -3dB according to HT Mag. Granted, the BPVX/P might have been 30 Hz @ -3dB if they were measured by Julian Hirsch/Stereo Review. But we will never know.

They just cannot substitute subs & amps for cubic inches.

 

[avaserfi]

The BPVX/P goes down to 38 Hz @ -3dB, according to Home Theater Magazine:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/compactspeakers/4/index2.html

The StudioMonitor 450 is 83 Hz @ -3dB per The Audio Critic:
http://theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_29_r.pdf

the StudioMonitor 350 is 79 Hz @ -3dB per HT Mag:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/compactspeakers/146/index1.html

The PowerMonitor 700 is 37 Hz @ -3dB per HT Mag:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/compactspeakers/98/index2.html

Bottom line: unless the speakers were measured in the exact same place by the exact same person using the exact same equipments, they will not mean much. Most 3rd party measurements will significantly differ (sometimes by 41 Hz difference) from the rated Freq. Resp. quoted by the companies.

It makes absolutely no sense that the SM450 is 83 Hz when the SM350 is 79 Hz!

The reason is because they were measured in two different places by different people using different equipments and different techniques (microphone placement, etc.).

If you look at the measurement techniques taken by both sources you will see neither should be necessarily considered credible right from the bat.

First from Hometheater Mag (first sentence): "This graph shows the quasi-anechoic (employing close-miking of all woofers)..." This sort of measurement technique has various issues on the low end response accuracy due to its methodology mixed with reflection time. A paper on the subject can be found here.

From The Audio Critic: ""I used nearfield measurements to assess low-frequency response, and measured response at middle to high frequencies with windowed in-room tests (my test microphone was centered between the tweeter and woofer/midrange axes, 1 meter away)." Again, this is not an accurate way to truly judge loudspeaker performance and is similar to the method previously used.

Without more detailed information on how each test was taken it is hard to determine accuracy, but I would speculate that both of these methods are not as accurate as proper techniques such as anechoic measurements thus creating the discrepancies. When reviewing loudspeaker measurements it is important to understand the methodology used as well as how to read the graphs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You will need a sub if you watch movies even if you have towers.

I bet my 48" BP7001SC towers (built-in 1,500-watts, 10-inch sub, 2 10-inch radiators) and my 53" BP7000SC towers (built-in 1,800-watts, 14" sub, 2 14" radiators) will blow away any $500 or less subwoofer. I can't gurantee for subwoofers greater than $500 since they do make some really nice subs these days from SVS or HSU or Epik, etc.

But a single BP7000SC tower's bass output will beat my old NHT SW2P Subwoofer anyday. Two BP7000SCs will kill one NHT SW2P.

 

[avaserfi]

Joe, they just cannot defy the laws of physics (not that I actually remember anything from Physics these days).

There is no substitute for cubic inches (that's one of the laws of physics too, right?).

They just cannot produce REAL BASS from any small cabinet no matter how much subwoofer and powered amps they put inside the little cabinet.

Take the $500 BP10B & $400 BP8B, for example. They go down to 25 Hz & 30 Hz @ -3dB according to Julian Hirsch/Stereo Review. And they don't even have a subwoofer driver! No Passive subwoofers and no active subwoofers!

Then take the $750 BPVX/P monitors with its built-in powered subwoofer; it goes down to 38 Hz @ -3dB according to HT Mag. Granted, the BPVX/P might have been 30 Hz @ -3dB if they were measured by Julian Hirsch/Stereo Review. But we will never know.

They just cannot substitute subs & amps for cubic inches.

There are two ways to get low excursion. One is just sheer size - a large cabinet with a large driver pushing a lot of air. This is typically the cheapest way to achieve SPLs as the driver won't be too expensive and power requirements are lower due to less needed excursion.

The other is using a smaller driver that has large excursion and a linear motor/suspension system to allow for minimal distortion with its long throw. This is normally a far more expensive method because very high quality drivers are required along side high power amplification to allow for this extreme excursion. Using this method one could have a far smaller than typical enclosure with a lower F3 point while maintaining dynamics.

It is important to note that the F3 point alone means nothing just because a loudspeaker can produce frequencies in a linear fashion at frequency X does not mean it will be sufficiently dynamic at frequency X slightly above.

I bet my 48" BP7001SC towers (built-in 1,500-watts, 10-inch sub, 2 10-inch radiators) and my 53" BP7000SC towers (built-in 1,800-watts, 14" sub, 2 14" radiators) will blow away any $500 or less subwoofer. I can't gurantee for subwoofers greater than $500 since they do make some really nice subs these days from SVS or HSU or Epik, etc.

But a single BP7000SC tower's bass output will beat my old NHT SW2P Subwoofer anyday. Two BP7000SCs will kill one NHT SW2P.

I bet my $500 sub could out do both of your BP7001's in terms of bass output without breaking a sweat. Did someone say 110dB at 20Hz with headroom to spare?

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I bet my 48" BP7001SC towers (built-in 1,500-watts, 10-inch sub, 2 10-inch radiators) and my 53" BP7000SC towers (built-in 1,800-watts, 14" sub, 2 14" radiators) will blow away any $500 or less subwoofer.

That counts as using a sub (actually two subs), though.