The case for choosing a smaller bookshelf in a 2.1 system

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I'm not talking lifestyle mini-cubes, this is about real bookshelf speakers.

A good immediate example (because of clearance sales) is the Wharfedale Diamond 10 series.

If you like the Wharfdale sound and are looking for a BS speaker, you can currently get the 10.1 at $200/pr (MSRP=$350) and the 10.2 at $275/pr. (MSRP=$450)

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/any-holiday-sales-thread.77597/page-47#post-1224343

So which to buy?

It seems reasonable to think that the 10.2 is the better option! You are getting a great discount either way and figure with the money you are saving, you can "splurge" for the 10.2's! However, that might not really get you the best sound!

The reason is that in a two way speaker, the designer is playing a game of how much bass vs a smooth transition between the woofer and the tweeter.

The major factors are:
1) How low can the tweeter go before it becomes distressed? You can only expect a 3/4" or 1" tweeter to extend so far down into the mid-range frequencies before it is pushing its capability.
2) How high can the woofer go before it becomes distressed? The larger a speaker, the less capable it is of extending into the upper midrange.
3) How much bass do you want from the speaker? Item 2 would suggest a smaller woofer is better, but that limits how deep the speaker will go.

So, the 10.1 has a 5" woofer and the 10.2 has a 6.5" woofer. Both have 1" tweeters, both cross to the tweeter at 1.8kHz, and both are rated at 86dB Sensitivity. The 10.1 is rated at 48Hz - 24kHz and the 10.2 is rated at 40Hz - 24kHz.

Now, let's look at the Tower version of this speaker (Diamond 10.7, MSRP=$1300/pr. on sale for $700/pr). It has the same 1" tweeter and the same 6.5" woofer as the 10.2. It also adds a 2" midrange and a second 6.5" woofer (without the phase plug and with a low pass filter at 150Hz).
The most relevant aspect of this, in my "armchair analysis", is that Wharfedale chose to use a good chunk of the tower's additional cost to add a 2" midrange (with additional crossover) which takes over the duties from 850Hz to 4.5kHz! From this, it seems likely that the transition from 6.5" woofer to 1" tweeter might not be so smooth as it ideally could be!
A 2" mid-range at 4.5kHz might be the ideal, but it is an easy bet that a 5" woofer will better blend with a 1"tweeter than a 6.5" woofer!

The benefit of the larger driver is additional bass: 40Hz instead of 48Hz. However, if this is a 2.1 system and you cross at the traditional 80Hz (or higher), I don't believe the 6.5" woofer adds anything audible over the 5" woofer!

Consequently, the 10.1 is likely to sound better in a 2.1 system.
(If it were a 2.0 system, the added bass may well be worth a somewhat less smooth transition)

As a contrasting example, lets look at the SVS Ultra Bookshelf. Here we have the same: A 6.5" mid-woofer crossed to a 1" tweeter... but at 2kHz!
However, when we look to the tower, what did they do? They use the same 1" tweeter, use dual 6.5" mid-woofers as midrange drivers, and add dual 8" woofers!
Obviously, they felt like the transition from 6.5" to 1" was good enough for their flagship speaker. If you consider that the street price is roughly 2.5 times the street price of the Diamonds, I would speculate that the quality of the Ultra 6.5" and 1" drivers allow them to more successfully blend/crossover.

Disclaimer: I am no speaker designer, and, as compared to many members of this forum, am quite ignorant of Speaker design concerns. However, from a pragmatic/generalized standpoint, I think my statements are valid and I welcome any corrections, education, or additional information more knowledgeable members provide. What I am describing is my own thought process which may be a useful stepping stone for those who have not yet obsessed much over such matters.:)
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
The answer of which speaker to choose is whichever measures the best. Don't just assume the 3-way tower does. We don't know at what frequencies the larger woofer goes into break-up modes or how it handles those break-up modes. We don't know the true extension of any of these speakers, and I would never take a manufacturers word for extension specs unless I really knew the manufacturer well. We don't really know how well the tweeter can handle frequencies around its crossover point. Also keep in mind that a 5" woofer will have different directivity character in upper frequencies than a 6" woofer: you want the one that matches the tweeter's directivity best at the crossover point. I wouldn't make any assumptions based on any of these specs. This is why we need measurements.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The answer of which speaker to choose is whichever measures the best. Don't just assume the 3-way tower does. We don't know at what frequencies the larger woofer goes into break-up modes or how it handles those break-up modes. We don't know the true extension of any of these speakers, and I would never take a manufacturers word for extension specs unless I really knew the manufacturer well. We don't really know how well the tweeter can handle frequencies around its crossover point. Also keep in mind that a 5" woofer will have different directivity character in upper frequencies than a 6" woofer: you want the one that matches the tweeter's directivity best at the crossover point. I wouldn't make any assumptions based on any of these specs. This is why we need measurements.
Yeah, I agree with you!
But AFAIK, the measurements don't exist, so we make the best decisions/inferences we can with the information that is available! In this case that information is limited.
This is far from a rigorous mathematical proof!
My feeling is this thought process plays the odds to get a better result than tossing a coin!
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
Kurt, as you know I have owned both the Wharfedale Denton 80th Anniversary bookshelves, as well as, the Diamond 220's. Both use the same size mid, but the 220's played noticeably deeper. However, doing so came at a cost in that the 220's were NOT near as warm as the Dentons. In fact, the 220's were a bit more on the neutral side of scale.

The trade-off with respect to the Dentons was they certainly were warmer sounding, but not near as much low end as the 220's. Thus, the Dentons were also more detailed. Both were very laid-back and smooth w/o any hint of listening fatigue whatsoever.

In the end, I kept the 220's b/c I did not want to employ a sub. However, going 2.1 then the Dentons would easily be a no-brainer if you will. Therefore, the Diamond 10.1 vs 10.2 would be very similar. That is, the 10.1's would have more warmth in the mids w/less low end extension than the 10.2's. Conversely, the 10.2 would offer more low end extension, but at the cost of some warmth in the mids. Hope this helps!


Cheers,

Phil
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
The best answer for most is to test the overall sound quality in your room and see if it floats your boat.

One that I am thinking about is the new Dayton MK402 speakers -- and it looks like they got serious about puttng a decent crossover in them. Now if they would think about doing one with a 5 or 6 inch woofer, that would be more interesting.

They might be good for a smaller system, second room or desk-top system -- cheaper than the Pioneer
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-mk402-4-2-way-bookshelf-speaker-pair--300-455
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Yeah, I agree with you!
But AFAIK, the measurements don't exist, so we make the best decisions/inferences we can with the information that is available! In this case that information is limited.
This is far from a rigorous mathematical proof!
My feeling is this thought process plays the odds to get a better result than tossing a coin!
some info on the Diamond 10.2
http://www.audioexcite.com/?page_id=4465
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
Kurt, a member over @AVS raves about how warm sounding his Diamond 10.1's are. I can tell you first hand that the Diamond 220's are what I refer to as being on the "warm side of neutral". It appears as though the Diamond 10.1's are warmer sounding then the 220's. Was hoping to directly compare the 10.1's, 220's, and the Dentons. But, due to current circumstance albeit my health I was just not able to do so. That is why now I am just going to use my JBL 305's and call it a day.

One thing I do know about you is that you seem to prefer a more neutral sound presentation. That being said, then I highly recommend the 220's. That is, the 220's are certainly more neutral then either the 10.1's and/or the Dentons. If on the other hand, you are looking at targeting a more warmer sound orientation AND using a sub, then the Dentons would easily fit the bill.


Cheers,

Phil
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
Kef Ls50s have a 3.5 inch (effective) woofer. But it is still crossed over at 2.2k. And it goes to lower that 50 Hz. Go figure. Maybe someone here can explain.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
Kef Ls50s have a 3.5 inch (effective) woofer. But it is still crossed over at 2.2k. And it goes to lower that 50 Hz. Go figure. Maybe someone here can explain.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Actually, the LS50's have a 5.25" mid according to their (KEF) very own specifications:


https://www.kefdirect.com/speakers/flagship-hi-fi-speakers/ls50/ls50-mini-monitor-speaker-pair.html


Of course, the tweeter is mounted directly on the mid creating a co-axial type of driver known as Uni-Q. The LS50's are very popular among various forums. Hope to hear them one day myself. :):):)


Cheers,

Phil
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
Kurt, I forgot to mention in my earlier post that I always wanted to see how the 10.1's compare to the Dentons in terms of detail and warmth. Keep in mind that the Dentons were originally $1K a set. Using a sub would really bring out the Dentons. Amazon has the Dentons for ONLY $399 right now!

https://www.amazon.com/Wharfedale-Denton-Red-Mahogany/dp/B00RDMZJ9U


Amazon also has the Diamond 220's for ONLY $299!

https://www.amazon.com/Wharfedale-Diamond-220-Black/dp/B00OHIZQ50/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1513255783&sr=1-3&keywords=diamond+220


Cheers,

Phil
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
Actually, the LS50's have a 5.25" mid according to their (KEF) very own specifications:


https://www.kefdirect.com/speakers/flagship-hi-fi-speakers/ls50/ls50-mini-monitor-speaker-pair.html


Of course, the tweeter is mounted directly on the mid creating a co-axial type of driver known as Uni-Q. The LS50's are very popular among various forums. Hope to hear them one day myself. :):):)


Cheers,

Phil
The woofer cone is much smaller. The surround is bigger. I will measure them a bit later.

They do sound amazing.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
Actually, the LS50's have a 5.25" mid according to their (KEF) very own specifications:


https://www.kefdirect.com/speakers/flagship-hi-fi-speakers/ls50/ls50-mini-monitor-speaker-pair.html


Of course, the tweeter is mounted directly on the mid creating a co-axial type of driver known as Uni-Q. The LS50's are very popular among various forums. Hope to hear them one day myself. :):):)


Cheers,

Phil
Here are the measurements. The gold ring around the tweeter is only about an inch wide and that is the woofer if you can call it that. Inside the ring is the structure that controls tweeter directivity. It is fixed. Inside that structure is the tweeter. The outer dimension of the gold woofer ring is 3.5 inch.

The black around the gold woofer is a cone surround.

Now tell me what size would you call this "woofer"



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
Here are the measurements. The gold ring around the tweeter is only about an inch wide and that is the woofer if you can call it that. Inside the ring is the structure that controls tweeter directivity. It is fixed. Inside that structure is the tweeter. The outer dimension of the gold woofer ring is 3.5 inch.

The black around the gold woofer is a cone surround.

Now tell me what size would you call this "woofer"



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Hey, I am not trying to be argumentative. But, KEF claims it is a 5.25" driver. I have never owned nor heard the LS50's so I can NOT confirm either way. All I know is that the LS50's are highly regarded here and on other various forums. As mentioned, I do hope to hear them one day. It is certainly on my to-do list.....LOL!!!!! :):):) BTW, glad that you like them. I probably would as well.


Cheers,

Phil
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Just curious, doesnt the rubber surround factor into the driver's size? If the size is 5.25", that would include the rubber surround or what ever the surround material is/
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Just curious, doesnt the rubber surround factor into the driver's size? If the size is 5.25", that would include the rubber surround or what ever the surround material is/
Many times driver size is measured from edge of frame to edge of frame, rather than the cone diameter itself. The Sd, which is the T/S parameter that determines the surface area that moves the air, typically includes half the surround.
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
Hey, I am not trying to be argumentative. But, KEF claims it is a 5.25" driver. I have never owned nor heard the LS50's so I can NOT confirm either way. All I know is that the LS50's are highly regarded here and on other various forums. As mentioned, I do hope to hear them one day. It is certainly on my to-do list.....LOL!!!!! :):):) BTW, glad that you like them. I probably would as well.


Cheers,

Phil
I apologize if I gave the impression of being argumentative. It was not my intention.

By the way, I am also curious how such a small speaker produces so low freq. And if the way I am measuring speaker size is the correct one.

@TLSguy or someone else may be able to educate us.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
Many times driver size is measured from edge of frame to edge of frame, rather than the cone diameter itself. The Sd, which is the T/S parameter that determines the surface area that moves the air, typically includes half the surround.
You are correct. If we measure the speaker from its frame size, it will be a 5.5 inch speaker. 1 inch for surround and another inch for the frame. Car speakers are measured like that. Not sure if the missing 1.5 inch center should be taken into account.

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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Kef Ls50s have a 3.5 inch (effective) woofer. But it is still crossed over at 2.2k. And it goes to lower that 50 Hz. Go figure. Maybe someone here can explain.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
I'm not sure what there is to explain!
The commonly stated woofer size definitely does not refer to the cone diameter. My JBL Studio 580's spec 6.5" woofers and they measure 4.75". So just like yours, the specified driver size is 1.75" greater than the cone diameter. I'm sure this is not absolutely consistent: I measured the 8" woofer in my vintage (early 80's) EPI 100's and the cone is 6", so marketing has had their say in this for a good while!

KEF has been refining their concentric aluminum tweeter/driver design for quite a while, and it is priced above the Ultra, so I would not consider 2.2kHz surprising!
The Diamond 10.1 specs a 5" woofer with a FR down to 48Hz, so for the KEF to hit 50Hz solidly is not surprising. (and I'm sure it performs better in other ways as compared to the Diamond 10.1)

Here is FR for the KEF ls50. Red is port, blue is driver, and black is composite.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I apologize if I gave the impression of being argumentative. It was not my intention.

By the way, I am also curious how such a small speaker produces so low freq. And if the way I am measuring speaker size is the correct one.

@TLSguy or someone else may be able to educate us.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Driver size/excursion vs cabinet size vs port depth/width gives the LS50's their base response. It is a bass reflex design, not really a mystery. Not hard to achieve its 55 Hz tuning point a speaker of its design.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
I'm not talking lifestyle mini-cubes, this is about real bookshelf speakers.

A good immediate example (because of clearance sales) is the Wharfedale Diamond 10 series.

If you like the Wharfdale sound and are looking for a BS speaker, you can currently get the 10.1 at $200/pr (MSRP=$350) and the 10.2 at $275/pr. (MSRP=$450)

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/any-holiday-sales-thread.77597/page-47#post-1224343

So which to buy?

It seems reasonable to think that the 10.2 is the better option! You are getting a great discount either way and figure with the money you are saving, you can "splurge" for the 10.2's! However, that might not really get you the best sound!

The reason is that in a two way speaker, the designer is playing a game of how much bass vs a smooth transition between the woofer and the tweeter.

The major factors are:
1) How low can the tweeter go before it becomes distressed? You can only expect a 3/4" or 1" tweeter to extend so far down into the mid-range frequencies before it is pushing its capability.
2) How high can the woofer go before it becomes distressed? The larger a speaker, the less capable it is of extending into the upper midrange.
3) How much bass do you want from the speaker? Item 2 would suggest a smaller woofer is better, but that limits how deep the speaker will go.

So, the 10.1 has a 5" woofer and the 10.2 has a 6.5" woofer. Both have 1" tweeters, both cross to the tweeter at 1.8kHz, and both are rated at 86dB Sensitivity. The 10.1 is rated at 48Hz - 24kHz and the 10.2 is rated at 40Hz - 24kHz.

Now, let's look at the Tower version of this speaker (Diamond 10.7, MSRP=$1300/pr. on sale for $700/pr). It has the same 1" tweeter and the same 6.5" woofer as the 10.2. It also adds a 2" midrange and a second 6.5" woofer (without the phase plug and with a low pass filter at 150Hz).
The most relevant aspect of this, in my "armchair analysis", is that Wharfedale chose to use a good chunk of the tower's additional cost to add a 2" midrange (with additional crossover) which takes over the duties from 850Hz to 4.5kHz! From this, it seems likely that the transition from 6.5" woofer to 1" tweeter might not be so smooth as it ideally could be!
A 2" mid-range at 4.5kHz might be the ideal, but it is an easy bet that a 5" woofer will better blend with a 1"tweeter than a 6.5" woofer!

The benefit of the larger driver is additional bass: 40Hz instead of 48Hz. However, if this is a 2.1 system and you cross at the traditional 80Hz (or higher), I don't believe the 6.5" woofer adds anything audible over the 5" woofer!

Consequently, the 10.1 is likely to sound better in a 2.1 system.
(If it were a 2.0 system, the added bass may well be worth a somewhat less smooth transition)

As a contrasting example, lets look at the SVS Ultra Bookshelf. Here we have the same: A 6.5" mid-woofer crossed to a 1" tweeter... but at 2kHz!
However, when we look to the tower, what did they do? They use the same 1" tweeter, use dual 6.5" mid-woofers as midrange drivers, and add dual 8" woofers!
Obviously, they felt like the transition from 6.5" to 1" was good enough for their flagship speaker. If you consider that the street price is roughly 2.5 times the street price of the Diamonds, I would speculate that the quality of the Ultra 6.5" and 1" drivers allow them to more successfully blend/crossover.

Disclaimer: I am no speaker designer, and, as compared to many members of this forum, am quite ignorant of Speaker design concerns. However, from a pragmatic/generalized standpoint, I think my statements are valid and I welcome any corrections, education, or additional information more knowledgeable members provide. What I am describing is my own thought process which may be a useful stepping stone for those who have not yet obsessed much over such matters.:)
I actually posed a similar question here recently. Honestly, I am of the opinion that the biggest problem with two way designs is that they necessitate an xover point somewhere between 2-3khz. You are correct that a smaller woofer will better match the directivity of a tweeter at the xover, but bass extension is not the only gain when using larger drivers. A larger surface area requires less excursion across the entire frequency range, plays louder with less power and lower distortion. Good luck filling a medium to large room at even -10dB from reference level with a 4” woofer, even if you cross over at 120hz.

For comparison, take the R-15m and R-14m for example, one has a 5.25” driver and one has a 4” driver. The R-15m has relatively low distortion above 100hz @85dB, while the R-14m has significant amounts of distortion all the way up to about 500hz.

In reality, a larger woofer with a lower xover to the tweeter (assuming the tweeter can handle it) will always outperform a smaller woofer, so long as directivity is matched. The only way to achieve this is either multi way designs (3-4way) since very few 1” tweeters can handle xover points below 2khz (even 2khz is pushing it at higher volumes), or horns/waveguides.

Assuming a flat FR and uniform directivity off axis, a two way waveguide loaded tweeter will often outperform a 3 or 4 way design, horn loading a tweeter significantly limits excursion and allows a tweeter to be crossed over much lower, in addition, adding more drivers increases the likelihood of problems such as vertical lobing or power response problems off axis. A waveguide can also restrict the dispersion at the xover to perfectly match the directivity of the woofer.

I know it would seem that I frequently assert that waveguides are the only way to properly design a speaker, obviously that isn’t true, and I don’t believe that, however, that doesn’t change the fact that there are significant advantages gained with waveguides/horns, especially in two way designs, since a waveguide solves most of the problems inherent with them, such as poor directivity matching, and the fact that both drivers are pushing the envelope of their usable range.

If you take a look at this chart, it’s easy to see that it’s near impossible to design a two way speaker where the directivity is matched without using a crossover point so low that you risk destroying the tweeter or at the least dealing with significant distortion. Not only that, but you’re never going to get a flat power response that doesn’t roll off off axis above 8khz with a 1” tweeter without a waveguide.


Diaphragm material makes a big difference too. The R-15m has an injection molded graphite woofer, while the RP-150m has an aluminum woofer that’s sandwiched between two layers of ceramic. Obviously, the cerametallic woofer is substantially more rigid, the R-15m shows increasing amounts of distortion in excess of 90dB below 500hz, whereas the RP-150m remains below 4% THD at 100dB, with distortion only exceeding this level below 80hz when the woofer is pushed beyond xmax, leading to nonlinear behavior as the VC jumps the gap.

The other concern is bass management. I tend to differ with most here purely out of experience and measurements to back them up, but it becomes much more difficult to properly blend a subwoofer above 60hz. Even if we assume 80hz isn’t directional, the issue is the path length from the subwoofer to the speakers. An 80hz wavelength is 14’ long. In order for separate sources to properly sum and behave as a single radiating source, the distance between the two sources must be a a half wavelength or less. That gives you 7’. While you technically could place a sub between the front speakers and be just fine, that ignores the fact you’re also crossing over surrounds or even heights. While you can achieve proper summing with time alignment in the distance settings, as soon as you move outside of the mlp your time alignment is wrecked, much like having a speaker above or below ear level results in a null at the xover frequency. Using a 50-60hz xover gives you 9’ & 11’ of leeway. Not only that, but a good majority of subs, especially those tuned very low, start taking a nosedive at frequencies above the sub bass range (16-60hz). In almost every room, with a variety of speakers and subs, I’ve never had good results with an 80hz crossover. 60hz has always been completely seamless, at 80hz and above, there was an obvious disconnect between the sub and speakers, with a sub placed along a sidewalk, I’ve also been able to localize it on more than one occasion, mostly when listening to music. For HT, it’s less of an issue.

Kef Ls50s have a 3.5 inch (effective) woofer. But it is still crossed over at 2.2k. And it goes to lower that 50 Hz. Go figure. Maybe someone here can explain.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Low fs driver due to either a heavier diaphragm or more compliant suspension, along with a larger cabinet size and the box tuning frequency. The main trade off is efficiency for extension, and usually worse top end extension. Woofer size is often incorrectly associated with extension. A larger surface area can move more air with less excursion, and the larger the diaphragm compared to the wavelength, the better the impedance match to the air at lower frequencies, so obviously a larger woofer will be able to do a better job at reproducing louder bass with less distortion, but it depends on the design.

Many pro audio PA speakers with 12-15” woofers roll off below 70-80hz, trading extension for high sensitivity, often in the mid to high 90s, whereas a 15” subwoofer may reach down to 18-25hz, but barely reach the mid 80s.
 
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