THD in tubes and SS amps

JoeE SP9

JoeE SP9

Senior Audioholic
Very interesting. Gives me more ammo when people ask why are you still using tubes. They always comment on how good the sound is before they notice the tubes. When they notice the tubes the comments range from "I didn't know they still made them" to "aren't those things obsolete". I don't know why glass bottles always get such a knee jerk reaction. I have bookmarked the site. I will be sending the address to several of my friends. FWIW I use tubes to drive my ES panels and a tube pre-amp. You can guess the pre-amp. :cool:
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
Just on quick reading it seems like a load of nonsense; it ultimately comes down to "what sounds better" to some 'philes in general and this author in particular.

I am not a scientist or engineer so I cannot and will not offer a detailed technical critique of the article. However:

This guy and other 'philes seem to be bent on discovering and isolating an "x factor" beyond detection by standard (and supposedly insufficient) measurements that accounts for the allegedly superior performance of their pet topologies, and for the sonic refinements they claim to hear. Remember, these sonic differences tend to disappear in ABX (double-blind) tests of all but the more "eccentric" circuit topologies like single-ended triode tube amps. The "AES types" and engineers/mainstream scientists in general are often held in contempt by these folks. To me, it sounds a lot like the perpetual motion machine types who castigate "conventional" scientists for their "blindness".

If the presence of such an "x factor" in either electronics or human hearing were seen to be a real possibility, one would think that the much-derided mainstream "AES types" (not to mention audiologists, psychoacousticians, and maybe even physicists) would be falling over themselves trying to find it, develop measurement protocols for it, and design new eqipment to exploit it. After all, it would confer considerable prestige on its discoverer and very likely considerable profits on the manufacturers who patent and exploit the novel circuit topologies resulting thereby.

Remember: for all the huffing and puffing by this author and others, the standard for music reproduction is and always has been that the output signal should resemble the input signal as closely as possible. Current measurements are capable of detecting deviations from accuracy far below the thresholds of human hearing, and modern solid-state electronics deliver accuracy well within the limits of human hearing. Tube gear can, too. But the single-ended triodes the author is talking about generally do have audible distortion and frequency response that is far from flat. Not to mention wimpy power output, like 9 watts/channel! Distortion of any kind is just that: distortion, or a deviation from fidelity. It might even sound "nice". Still, as the notorious "AES type" Doug Self has pointed out, why don't makers simply add a "niceness knob" to add whatever kind or degree of harmonic and other distortion one desires?

Anyway, one particular type of harmonic distortion (I can never remember if its even- or odd-order) does sound rather nice ("euphonic") because it adds harmonics an octave above the fundamental, adding a bit of brightness and (to some) the appearance of added "detail" and "air" and the like. My Audio Wisdom page links to a site where you can hear samples of even and odd order harmonic distortion for yourself.

Bottom line: even though he sounds techy and does all sorts of measurements, it still sounds like pseudoscience to me.

[EDIT] I see the author has a techical background and worked for Tektronix (a respected mfr. of oscilloscopes and other test equipment). So you're going to say, "ha, Rip! The guy's a techy himself so who are you to call it pseudoscience, Mr. Smarty Pants theater major?" To which I reply: the annals of science (and other intellectual pursuits) are full of otherwise brilliant people who forget their intellectual self-discipline and become quite dotty when they stray outside of their specialty, even if it's "right next door" so to speak. It is one of the mysteries of human folly.

If he does have real technical or scientific insights, why not publish them in a peer-reviewed technical or scientific journal where they can be critiqued, tested, and confirmed, refined, or refuted by other scientists? That's how science works, folks.

I leave it to any actual scientists and engineers here to offer a detailed technical critique of the article.
 
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Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
Interesting link. It's a shame his concluding paragraph wasn't preceded by an ABX test to see if the waterfall plots he shows are in any way linked to audible differences.
 
D

djoxygen

Full Audioholic
Even- and Odd-order harmonics.

Rip Van Woofer said:
Anyway, one particular type of harmonic distortion (I can never remember if its even- or odd-order) does sound rather nice ("euphonic") because it adds harmonics an octave above the fundamental, adding a bit of brightness and (to some) the appearance of added "detail" and "air" and the like. My Audio Wisdom page links to a site where you can hear samples of even and odd order harmonic distortion for yourself.
Odd are the "pleasing" ones because they begin farther away from the fundamental and have more multiples lining up on octaves and fifths before they diminish to inaudible levels. Evens start to hit 4ths, 3rds, and smaller intervals at higher power levels, and thereby sound more dissonant.
 
D

djoxygen

Full Audioholic
Rob Babcock said:
Interesting link. It's a shame his concluding paragraph wasn't preceded by an ABX test to see if the waterfall plots he shows are in any way linked to audible differences.
It seems that this guy starts out with the basic assumption is that distortion is OK, and maybe even good. Therefore, I think it's entirely possible that he and others like him *could* successfully identify their systems of choice in ABX testing. I'm no golden-ear, but I could probably pick out a tube vs. solid state with those levels of distortion. I'd probably just differ on which was "better".
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
av_phile said:
Wold appreciate your comments on the ff article.

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/FindingCG.html

High THDs in Tubes result in better sound than low THDs in SS amps???? Please confirm.
An older article, nothing new. Distortion is still distortion, not accurate reproduction of the input signal. Nothing wrong with liking euponic sound but that is not what was recorded live or in a studio.
Hi fidelity reproduction is an accurate reproduction, not a distorted one.

His assertion that THD measurement and what you actually hear is close to zero. Maybe he needs to do some bias controlled listeing to get a better correlation?
 
JoeE SP9

JoeE SP9

Senior Audioholic
I don't care about distortion levels, ABX testing or any of that stuff. I only know that although my 2 ex-wives and all of my current lady friends couldn't care less about audio they all have a much better response when I use tube equipment. In the mid 80's when I began to listen to all the ABXer's and solid state people I switched to some solid state stuff. My wife came home from work and called down the stairs to my listening room and said there is something wrong with your rig (yes, she called it a rig). I left the transistors in and all she did was stay out of the room and complain about the volume. When I put the tubes back in she stopped complaining and returned to the room. I never told her what I had done. My second wife would complain about the volume when I had solid state equipment but not when I was using tubes. My current lady friends complain about excessive volume when I use solid state amps. With tubes they don't complain and often ask for more volume. Every woman I know prefers vinyl over CD. SACD and DVD-A don't cause as much complaining as CD's but they still prefer vinyl. I don't ask them for their opinions about any of my equipment or source choices. They don't care if I'm using tubes or transistors CD's or vinyl and don't bother checking. They spontaneously volunteer their opinions. I get complaints when I use solid state equipment and no complaints when I use tubes. I don't care about noise, distortion, hum, microphonics or any of that technical stuff. I just care that when I'm using tubes I wake up more often with a female next to me. All you spec. readers and ABX testers can say and do what you wish. My social life is much more fulfilling and fun when I play vinyl through tubes. How many of you actually have females ask you to turn it up? One parting thought; movies, DVD or tape don't get the same response. With them I get "it's to loud please turn it down". I expect a lot of negative responses to this from males, but I would like to hear from any of the female participants. I'm sure we all would.
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
Well, I have to admit: "chicks dig it" is a powerful argument! :D

Alas, being married doing a controlled test of this hypothesis with a sufficiently large sample would be difficult..."but honey, I swear, it's only for the sake of science!"
 
JoeE SP9

JoeE SP9

Senior Audioholic
I guess the real question is. Do "chicks" hear or not hear something we don't? I'm not technically incompetant (BS EE MS IT) and I have tried to explain my results in other ways. I don't in way want to denigrate women. I "know" that specs and measurements say otherwise but vinyl and tubes seem to work for all the women I know. My mother is one of those. My brother and I had to put together a reasonable system for her. I tried to get her vinyl collection by telling her it was obselete. She told me records sounded better than CD's tick's pop's and all. When was the last time anyone's female companion requested an increase in volume? :cool:
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
In all seriousness, I have read that, in general, women have and maintain their upper frequency hearing better than men. There's a hypothesis that, partly as a result, they are much more sensitive to distortion at high frequencies.

The limited high frequency content of many vinyl recordings, and the fact that some (not all!) tube gear rolls off the high end and/or clips more 'softly' than SS gear may help to mask objectionable high-frequency sounds that we men are less sensitive to.

Whether the objectionable sound resides in the SS gear or our speakers and the speaker/room interface is another matter. I'm betting on the speakers and rooms. And many recordings are no doubt culprits as well.
 
JoeE SP9

JoeE SP9

Senior Audioholic
You have a point there. I find most dome tweeters overly screechy. I have been using Maggy's, Quad's, Apogee's or Acoustat's since 1977. According to some of my audio buds my speakers always sound soft in comparison to their boxes. Could it also have something to do with the dispersion patterns of di-polar speakers. Incidentally I heard some Hill Plasmatronics years ago. Best and smoothest treble I've ever heard. :cool:
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Rip Van Woofer said:
I see the author has a techical background and worked for Tektronix (a respected mfr. of oscilloscopes and other test equipment). So you're going to say, "ha, Rip! The guy's a techy himself so who are you to call it pseudoscience, Mr. Smarty Pants theater major?" To which I reply: the annals of science (and other intellectual pursuits) are full of otherwise brilliant people who forget their intellectual self-discipline and become quite dotty when they stray outside of their specialty, even if it's "right next door" so to speak. It is one of the mysteries of human folly.
All too true. In my view, their is nothing more dangerous then speculations presented as 'truth' by someone with credentials.

-Chris
 
D

djoxygen

Full Audioholic
JoeE SP9 said:
When was the last time anyone's female companion requested an increase in volume?
Uhh... Last night. The night before. The night before that.

My darling prefers more volume on everything - movies, music, TV. Much more than I do. When I set the volume on a flick to the place I feel is comfortably engrossing, she asks for more about 90% of the time.

No tubes in da house. Our primitive setup is all sources (analog) routed through Hitachi 43" CRT RP, audio out of TV to Aphex 124A transformer to Mackie HR824s (L/R only).

It's really a matter of personal preference. We have grown up listening to music and movies that are largely digital from the studios to our speakers. Our personal preference is accuracy. I'll pick it almost every time - ABX or otherwise. (BTW - as a DJ, I am *not* a analog-phobe. I have 12" singles that sound better than their digital counterparts, but I attribute that to mastering as I also have examples of the opposite.)
 
H

House de Kris

Enthusiast
Thanks for the hints WRT females. And here, all along, I thought chicks dug huge subwoofers driven by thousands of solid state watts. Damn, guess all that money I spent on that Krell sub was a waste. All I really had to do was unhook the super-tweeter.
 
JoeE SP9

JoeE SP9

Senior Audioholic
Djoxygen you are one of the lucky few. Your SO (significant other) sounds a lot like my first wife. She actually blew the 5 amp fuses in the Acoustat interface boxes. She said "I've been playing them real loud for several hours". I was away on a business trip at the time. Fortunately I had spare fuses around and talked her through replacing them. I also have a selection of 12" singles and some do sound really good. ex: The Commodores Night Shift. :cool:
 
JoeE SP9

JoeE SP9

Senior Audioholic
House de Kris said:
Thanks for the hints WRT females. And here, all along, I thought chicks dug huge subwoofers driven by thousands of solid state watts. Damn, guess all that money I spent on that Krell sub was a waste. All I really had to do was unhook the super-tweeter.
They do dig the subwoofer they just don't care about the size! :cool:
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
JoeE SP9 said:
I don't care about distortion levels, ABX testing or any of that stuff. I only know that although my 2 ex-wives and all of my current lady friends couldn't care less about audio they all have a much better response when I use tube equipment. In the mid 80's when I began to listen to all the ABXer's and solid state people I switched to some solid state stuff. My wife came home from work and called down the stairs to my listening room and said there is something wrong with your rig (yes, she called it a rig). I left the transistors in and all she did was stay out of the room and complain about the volume. When I put the tubes back in she stopped complaining and returned to the room. I never told her what I had done. My second wife would complain about the volume when I had solid state equipment but not when I was using tubes. My current lady friends complain about excessive volume when I use solid state amps. With tubes they don't complain and often ask for more volume. Every woman I know prefers vinyl over CD. SACD and DVD-A don't cause as much complaining as CD's but they still prefer vinyl. I don't ask them for their opinions about any of my equipment or source choices. They don't care if I'm using tubes or transistors CD's or vinyl and don't bother checking. They spontaneously volunteer their opinions. I get complaints when I use solid state equipment and no complaints when I use tubes. I don't care about noise, distortion, hum, microphonics or any of that technical stuff. I just care that when I'm using tubes I wake up more often with a female next to me. All you spec. readers and ABX testers can say and do what you wish. My social life is much more fulfilling and fun when I play vinyl through tubes. How many of you actually have females ask you to turn it up? One parting thought; movies, DVD or tape don't get the same response. With them I get "it's to loud please turn it down". I expect a lot of negative responses to this from males, but I would like to hear from any of the female participants. I'm sure we all would.
Well, your first wife was used to the old setup and complained when it changed, even if she didn't know you did. Why would they not sound different, especially back then? Just like when I get a new pair of shoes, I complain, or used to ;)
The others, well, maybe they don't like the reality of the music although people do like the upper bands rolled off more than others.

Maybe my problem is not having tubes :p
Enjoy your successes :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Rip Van Woofer said:
If he does have real technical or scientific insights, why not publish them in a peer-reviewed technical or scientific journal where they can be critiqued, tested, and confirmed, refined, or refuted by other scientists? That's how science works, folks.
This reminds me of the article by Hawksford, "Essex Echo" a number of years ago published in some audio mags. Many try to use it as some evidence for something. Why didn't he submit it for peer reviewe?

A contributor at another site explained his contac with Hawksford to point out his mistakes in that experiments. The silence from the author was a killer.
 
P

Pat D

Audioholic
Frequency response into speaker loads.

av_phile said:
Wold appreciate your comments on the ff article.

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/FindingCG.html

High THDs in Tubes result in better sound than low THDs in SS amps???? Please confirm.
Most tube amps have a high output impedance, usually from about 1 to 4 or 5 ohms, whereas most solid state amps have a low output impedance, less than 0.1 ohm. Hence, tube amps do not have as flat a frequency response into most speaker loads, which are not simple resistors. E. Brad Meyer in "The Amp/Speaker Interface: Are your loudspeakers turning your amplifier into a tone control?," Stereo Review, June 1991, p. 53-56, showed some measurements of a good solid state amp and a much more expensive tube amp into two different speaker loads. I am not absolutely sure of the history here but I think Audio magazine and Stereophile began testing the frequency responses of amplifiers into a standard simulated speaker load sometime after that. Anyway, the biggest difference in the signal seems to be in the frequency response rather than in distortion.

Here are the measurements of one tube amp that no doubt will sound different into most speaker loads:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/atmasphere_ma1_mkii2/

Check out Chart 1. This amp is pretty flat into a resistor, but the green trace shows its response into the simulated speaker load: definitely not flat. The characteristics of the simulated speaker load are shown in the explanation of the measurements BHK Labs makes for Soundstage :

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/test_amplifiers.htm

Now, that amp has an output impedance of 10.5 ohms, so it is somewhat extreme. However, most tube amps do not have a flat response into the simulated speaker load or into the load of most speakers, so of course they are likely to sound different than amps (tube or SS) with a low output impedance.

Most solid state amps have an output impedance of less than 0.1 ohms, so their frequency response into a speaker load is almost as flat as it is into a resistor.

The old Audio magazine included the measurement of an amp into the simulated speaker load and so does Stereophile. You can easily check out the measurements of amps in reviews on the Soundstage and Stereophile sites to see the results for various amps when driving the simulated speaker load.

The difference in frequency response into different speaker loads seems to me to be the biggest difference in the signals coming from amps with low and high output impedances rather than the distortion. Whether you like the results, of course, is up to your personal preference, but there is nothing magic about it.
 
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