Temperature treatments for cables.

[grimreaper46]

I notice in one of the videos that cryogenics for cables was somewhat ridiculed. The statement made was basically that after cryogenically treating the cable it came back to room temperature anyway so what effect could it possibly have.

I was thinking about this and I thought well heating cable then cooling it (some by leaving to cool naturally and some by quenshing) has a very great effect on wire. Now I am not a metalurgist but does heating have an effect but cooling doesn't. Any experts care to comment?

 

[slipperybidness]

I notice in one of the videos that cryogenics for cables was somewhat ridiculed. The statement made was basically that after cryogenically treating the cable it came back to room temperature anyway so what effect could it possibly have.

I was thinking about this and I thought well heating cable then cooling it (some by leaving to cool naturally and some by quenshing) has a very great effect on wire. Now I am not a metalurgist but does heating have an effect but cooling doesn't. Any experts care to comment?

The conduction in Cu, Ag, etc (i.e. a conductor) is an inherent property of the electrons in the metal.

For a conductor, the valence atoms are in the conduction band (ie, the conduction and the valence electron energy levels overlap). It is the movement of these electrons in the conductance band that allows for a material to conduct electricity.

Take Cu as an example: It has only 1 electron in the valence band. If it were to lose that 1 electron, it would have a full outer electron shell, and this represents a very stable ground-state. Therefore, the Cu ion can very easily lose that valence (conduction) electron, and thus Cu is a good conductor.

Since we are dealing with energy levels of electrons, it is the operating temp that is important, not the previous states of the system. Also, elemental Cu is not a crystal. IF (and that is a big IF) cryo treating were to do anything, it would have to be aligning crystal structures for a more uniform crystal.

The bottom line is that this whole cryo treating is marketing/snake oil/voodoo science, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Speedskater]

Well 'jneutron' is the expert on super-conductor temperatures and wires & cables.

My thought is that may be some very small measurable changes that last until you start handling and flexing the cable.

 

[slipperybidness]

Well 'jneutron' is the expert on super-conductor temperatures and wires & cables.

My thought is that may be some very small measurable changes that last until you start handling and flexing the cable.

Temperature = a measure of Kinetic energy.

Cold = less kinetic energy than hot.

So, a hot cable should have more kinetic energy and make it easier for the electrons to move about in the conductance band. However, as temperature rises, the vibrational motion of the Cu atoms also goes up, and this acts to reduce the conductance.

What is important is the operating temperature, not the previous hot or cold temps applied to the wire.

 

[grimreaper46]

My point was that heating and cooling (i.e. anhealing) makes a copper cable more flexible after it has been cold drawn for example. So some change has been made to the copper before anhealing and remains after it has cooled back to room temperature. My question was, does something happen to a copper wire when it is treated cryogenically that remains after it has resumed room temperature? As I said I am not a metalurgist but it just seemed strange that raising to a high temperature affects the copper that has an affect that remains yet even if cryogenically treating copper has some affect that affect is no longer present when the copper returns to room temperature.

I am not suggesting that it has any affect on sound reproduction, that is another question, but is there is any change in the copper wire.

 

[Swerd]

My point was that heating and cooling (i.e. anhealing) makes a copper cable more flexible after it has been cold drawn for example. So some change has been made to the copper before anhealing and remains after it has cooled back to room temperature. My question was, does something happen to a copper wire when it is treated cryogenically that remains after it has resumed room temperature? As I said I am not a metalurgist but it just seemed strange that raising to a high temperature affects the copper that has an affect that remains yet even if cryogenically treating copper has some affect that affect is no longer present when the copper returns to room temperature.

I am not suggesting that it has any affect on sound reproduction, that is another question, but is there is any change in the copper wire.

And that is the critical question. In fact, it's the only question we should be concerned with: What effect does it have on sound reproduction?

To the best of my knowledge, no one has demonstrated that high or low temperature treatment of copper wire has any effect at all on sound reproduction.

It is well known that ultra low temperatures cause electrical conduction to behave anomalously, where resistance essentially vanishes Superconductivity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. For copper wire to do this requires temperatures associated with liquid helium (4.2°K, -269°C, or -452°F). Certain ceramic materials, such as yttrium barium copper oxide (YBa[SUB]2[/SUB]Cu[SUB]3[/SUB]O[SUB]7[/SUB]), can act as superconductors at much higher critical temperatures (92° K, -181°C, -294°F).

But cooling or heating copper wire, and then returning it to room temperature has no effect at all on it's ability to conduct electricity. Any one claiming that sound reproduction actually improves by such treatment is being dishonest.

If you carefully read any web site that attempts to convince readers of the benefits of "cryogenic treatment" of copper wires, you may find language that suggests or implies that it might happen, but never contains any direct statement that cyrogenic treatment actually has an audible benefit.

 

[mtrycrafts]

My point was that heating and cooling (i.e. anhealing) makes a copper cable more flexible after it has been cold drawn for example. So some change has been made to the copper before anhealing and remains after it has cooled back to room temperature. My question was, does something happen to a copper wire when it is treated cryogenically that remains after it has resumed room temperature? As I said I am not a metalurgist but it just seemed strange that raising to a high temperature affects the copper that has an affect that remains yet even if cryogenically treating copper has some affect that affect is no longer present when the copper returns to room temperature.

I am not suggesting that it has any affect on sound reproduction, that is another question, but is there is any change in the copper wire.

There might be some crystalline changes but not sure if it stays after it regains to room temp. Perhaps the neutron guy or a good metallurgist.
In the meantime may want to read this Googlebook on copper:
Copper and Copper Alloys - Google Books

 

[Speedskater]

The neutron guy.

Member: jneutron

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/members/jneutron.html

 

[grimreaper46]

I think this has become a cul-de-sac. Thanks for the responses. I still cannot find the answer as to whether cryogenic treatment has any permanent effect on copper wire.

Swerd said "And that is the critical question. In fact, it's the only question we should be concerned with: What effect does it have on sound reproduction?" Well it wasn't the critical question to me. The critical question was "Does it have any permanent effect?" Having an answer to that means we can move on to other qustions. If it has no permanent effect all other question are immaterial.

 

[Rickster71]

I think this has become a cul-de-sac. Thanks for the responses. I still cannot find the answer as to whether cryogenic treatment has any permanent effect on copper wire.
The critical question was "Does it have any permanent effect?" Having an answer to that means we can move on to other qustions. If it has no permanent effect all other question are immaterial.

You raise a valid question; to what end?
I'm wondering if your question wouldn't be better severed on a forum dedicated to metallurgy.
Try this: Metal and Metallurgy engineering Forum - Eng-Tips

Good Luck.

 

[Speedskater]

In another forum, our member 'jneutron' responded to the question:

<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--> I see no reason to dismiss the likelihood that cryo treating does change material properties, just as heat treating changes material properties; and it certainly seems possible that differences in material properties could result in sonic improvement.

I tend to agree give or take. However, my last 20 years has been spent working with cryogenics in the capacity of design, building, and testing of widgits for use in liquid helium, liquid nitrogen, and liquid argon. At NO time has there been any measurable change in either dielectrics or metals as a consequence of cryogenic treatment. When I say measurable, I mean within the resolution of my equipment, which is typically accurate to 10 decimal places. So while I remain open, I and the scientists and physicists I work with on a daily basis from around the planet have never experienced any measurable change in either the metals or insulators we use as a consequence of cryogenic treatment. The biggest issue we deal with is the thermal expansion coefficients as we go from room to absolute zero +2 C.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]-->

 

[Swerd]

In another forum, our member 'jneutron' responded to the question:

<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--> I see no reason to dismiss the likelihood that cryo treating does change material properties, just as heat treating changes material properties; and it certainly seems possible that differences in material properties could result in sonic improvement.

I tend to agree give or take. However, my last 20 years has been spent working with cryogenics in the capacity of design, building, and testing of widgits for use in liquid helium, liquid nitrogen, and liquid argon. At NO time has there been any measurable change in either dielectrics or metals as a consequence of cryogenic treatment. When I say measurable, I mean within the resolution of my equipment, which is typically accurate to 10 decimal places. So while I remain open, I and the scientists and physicists I work with on a daily basis from around the planet have never experienced any measurable change in either the metals or insulators we use as a consequence of cryogenic treatment. The biggest issue we deal with is the thermal expansion coefficients as we go from room to absolute zero +2 C.

Thanks. I think the answer "At NO time has there been any measurable change in either dielectrics or metals as a consequence of cryogenic treatment." would satisfy most people.

For those who might believe that human hearing (including acoustic processing by the brain) is highly sensitive, I would argue that measurements accurate to 10 decimal places is significantly more sensitive.

If no measurable change occurs in conductors or insulators under those temperature conditions, why would anyone wonder if there might be audible changes? Perhaps the OP isn't thinking of this, and I'm wrong about him. But why else would he ask an audio forum such a question about possible submicroscopic changes in copper metal at ultra low temperatures?