System Recomendations Please...

[digicidal]

OK... this might wind up being a long one - and I'm sure you guys are sick of this type of post, but since we're all in to A/V technologies... it can't get too old can it? If you don't care for the preface to this novel - skip down to the asterisks line...

My house is small and sucks for audio - well, pretty much for everything... ( But it's paid for so meh - no mortgage = I can live with it ). I've previously been dealing with TV in my family room which is the worst ever - 45" wall for TV and speakers (yes 45 inches) with fireplace on one side and breakfast bar on other side - no side walls for 20' on either side of the TV, 16' vaulted ceiling angled down to 12' above seating area... which is only 10' from the TV! And the main traffic flow through the house is between the sectional and the entertainment center.

After getting 'clearance' from my wife - I'm planning on setting everything up in the living room/dining room and turning the family room into a dining room (hehe). Still have a valuted ceiling (now it will be 8' at TV and speakers rising to 16' at the back - which is the old dining room). So my media room will now look like this: 15' wide X 22' deep, left wall solid with 2 smaller windows, right wall extends from the front 8' and then opens to the entryway. Not perfect, but much better.

On to the real issue - I previously owned a Klipsch Synergy 5.1 system circa 1993 - which I hated. Everything sounded very congested to me with extremely directional highs which seemed bright yet rolled off (horns) and with the center channel actually sounding like it was swallowing the dialog rather than presenting it. Have upgraded receivers several times - not actually expecting different sound... it was for features (more digital inputs, HDMI switching, room EQ) - before just giving up on the project.

Currently the living room is home to my 2ch setup which is just a pair of Polk RTi A1's on shot-loaded stands and a small Infinity Sub (which sucks). 2ch components are: Cambridge Audio 640A integrated, 640C CD player, DAC Magic, and my custom built touchscreen jukebox which has all of my CD collection ripped to FLAC.

*********************************************************

So I want to build one system for everything - I'll sell off / give away all of my current gear or use it in bedroom system(s). I really don't have a budget per se - however, I have some other financial goals - so lets say $5K as a ballpark.

What I mostly want is a system that is without compromise in the 2ch department as I listen to music 90% of the time, never watch TV, and only watch 1 or 2 movies a week (if I'm lucky). In addition to the Polk bookshelves and the Klipsch Synergy 5.1 system... I picked up some cheap Tekton Design speakers - with Fostex FE207E's as their only driver... and before you start... I love them! OK... yes they are missing, well almost all of the upper range, and they have a hump in the 3Khz area (mostly fixed with a BSC)... but the resolution is unreal. They actually made me enjoy watching TV/Movies - although not enjoyable for music as much (other than female vocals which are heavenly).

So what I most want is that kind of point-source clarity and resolution, but with the bass and treble that I'm currently missing. I have a Pioneer VSX-1019AH-K currently doing nothing other than powering the Fostex boxes and switching HDMI for me. I like the feature set of that receiver, but some of the speakers I have auditioned, and many I've researched I think will be way too difficult load-wise for it's amp section...

My thoughts are:

1) Stay 2.1 CH: Maggies (1.7's - which I've heard and loved) running off a very high-current amp - possibly either one of the Wyred4Sound ICEPower amps or maybe dual Emotiva XPA-1's. Plus a good pre-amp & DAC (or at least a DAC with volume control and numerous selectable inputs).

2) Go 7.1/2 - Keep VSX-1019AH-K, have rear and side surrounds installed in ceiling, and purchase front towers + center that are an easier load (and what isn't compared to the Maggies) and subs. I've auditioned KEF iQ, Focal 700 & 800, DefTech Mythos, B&W CM series as well as ML Source, Polk RTi,LSi, Klipsch Reference. I liked the Focal's and the B&W's, thought the KEFs were 'decent' but I had to audition them at Fry's and the sound room was horrible to put it nicely. I didn't really like the DefTech's or the Klipsch's - for similar reasons that I don't like any of the other Polk RTi series other than my A1's. And the others would be too difficult for the Pioneer AVR to drive I think - Polk LSi and PSB Imagine in particular - although I liked the LSi's and I like the PSB's on paper at least - nowhere to hear them tho.

3) Similar speaker selections as above but possibly initially just going with a 3.1 setup in front so as to avoid the initial cost of having the ceiling installs done. Replace the VSX1019 with either a Marantz 8000 series (refurb/used) or a new 6000 series, or Emotiva UMC-1 + XPA-3 (with plans to later add in a UPA-5 for the surrounds in conjunction with ceiling install).

OK... my novel is finished... I'm not it a rush - although I am looking forward to really enjoying good sound as soon as possible. The biggest thing is that I want to spend this money once... at least for the next several years. And before you ask, I'm planning on spending at least as much as I spend on the front speakers in room treatments where possible & WAF-acceptable.

 

[digicidal]

Just to clarify...

I just wanted to clarify one thing... I'm not looking for a "This is the system you should buy because I own it and it sounds great"... Since I can't listen to my system with your ears.

What I'm more hoping for is something along the lines of... "I really like the Maggies too, but you can get similar clarity and staging with these potentially..." or "You're making a huge mistake even thinking of building a system around your current AVR - because..."



I'll gladly go audition and research any suggestions provided - assuming that they are NOT involving which speaker cable I should use, or that I should just buy a BOSE system... after all - that's why I registered on THIS forum and not one of the 50 others out there.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I say get a pair of great sounding full-range tower speakers and good power Denon/Martantz AVR.

Put most of that money on the pair of speakers.

Most of us don't really need the external amp unless we just want to upgrade for the heck of it.

But if you have a set budget and want the best sound, I say just keep it simple for now and get an AVR with 7.1 ext outputs if you have upgraditis in the future.

I watch movies more than music, so a 5.1 system makes more since.

But IF I listen to music 90% and watch movies 10%, I would just have a pair of full-range towers like the DefTech BP7000SC or the RBH T2/P.

With either of those towers, you won't need a subwoofer. They are truly "full-range" 20Hz - 20kHz.

But with any kind of huge investments, you need to do a lot of research and reading.

Oh, and never pay full retail.

 

[sholling]

Having read the post twice I'm not sure what you're asking other than validation for the decisions that you've already been made. Well Maggies are some fine speakers. But if it were me with a $5k budget I'd arrange to research and listen to more products and then decide which you like best - which may very well be the Maggies. But since it's highly unlikely that the other half is going to give you a $5k do-over I'd take my time before pulling the trigger.

I'd start by going through the Audioholics Pro reviews. I find them to be quite useful for comparison purposes and for an introduction to those speakers and other products that you might not find locally. I would not limit myself to "truly full range" speakers. That's a bit like going to a general practitioner for open heart surgery. There are a few that can pull it off but the good ones aren't cheap and I'd rather have a specialist (subwoofer), or at least have the "full range" mains backed by a sub to even out room response.

I also suggest starting your planning around 3.1 or 5.1 system so that you aren't compromising the front three to pay for the little used rear surrounds. You can always go back and add them later, but the center needs to be a part of the plan, as does deep plentiful bass.

I'd start my search with the Maggies, the products in this shootout and the ones on AcuDefTechGuy's list and see if you can find a place to listen to them all. In some cases that might wind up being in private homes who's enthusiastic owners open them up to demo their favorite speakers. There should be lot's of options for listening in Vegas and a road trip to San Clemente to listen to prototypes of Ascend Acoustic's upcoming tower might be fun.

 

[ahblaza]

Having read the post twice I'm not sure what you're asking other than validation for the decisions that you've already been made. Well Maggies are some fine speakers. But if it were me with a $5k budget I'd arrange to research and listen to more products and then decide which you like best - which may very well be the Maggies. But since it's highly unlikely that the other half is going to give you a $5k do-over I'd take my time before pulling the trigger.

I'd start by going through the Audioholics Pro reviews. I find them to be quite useful for comparison purposes and for an introduction to those speakers and other products that you might not find locally. I would not limit myself to "truly full range" speakers. That's a bit like going to a general practitioner for open heart surgery. There are a few that can pull it off but the good ones aren't cheap and I'd rather have a specialist (subwoofer), or at least have the "full range" mains backed by a sub to even out room response.

I also suggest starting your planning around 3.1 or 5.1 system so that you aren't compromising the front three to pay for the little used rear surrounds. You can always go back and add them later, but the center needs to be a part of the plan, as does deep plentiful bass.

I'd start my search with the Maggies, the products in this shootout and the ones on AcuDefTechGuy's list and see if you can find a place to listen to them all. In some cases that might wind up being in private homes who's enthusiastic owners open them up to demo their favorite speakers. There should be lot's of options for listening in Vegas and a road trip to San Clemente to listen to prototypes of Ascend Acoustic's upcoming tower might be fun.

sholling, there is a lot of electricity flowing around the new Sierra tower, wow! I agree the OP needs to get out and listen to options available, no better suggestion.

 

[sholling]

sholling, there is a lot of electricity flowing around the new Sierra tower, wow! I agree the OP needs to get out and listen to options available, no better suggestion.

I've heard the prototypes, and while not quite a finished product at the time, they were impressive. Dave has his sights set on the Salk Song Tower QWT as his target but I haven't heard them side by side.

 

[digicidal]

Having read the post twice I'm not sure what you're asking other than validation for the decisions that you've already been made. Well Maggies are some fine speakers. But if it were me with a $5k budget I'd arrange to research and listen to more products and then decide which you like best - which may very well be the Maggies. But since it's highly unlikely that the other half is going to give you a $5k do-over I'd take my time before pulling the trigger.

LOL! Well, she'd probably be more open to it than most - one of the advantages of me being the only income and her getting to sit around the house, go to the salon, etc... and sleep until noon.

Your suggestions of going to owners houses is definitely a good one - I'll have to dig deep however, since none of my friends are really in to audio (the only ones that even have something better than HTIB setups are using gear I gave them in my early days of severe upgradeitis).

Las Vegas isn't a great as you might think... a majority of the good medium to high end shops have closed up now that our real estate market has completely imploded and unemployment passed 15%. We don't have a Magnepan dealer in the state (I have to go to Salt Lake City, Phoenix, or LA) and the biggest issue with doing comparitive auditions with the Maggies is that the shops that carry them rarely carry cabinet speakers that are less than my budget for a single speaker, and although I found it interesting that I still liked the 1.7s even after hearing some 5-figure Magico's just before them... it's not really practical.

I have read the reviews of the speakers in the shootoff - and am intrigued about the Salks... I guess I'll need to mull on it a little bit. I've also thought about ordering a pair of the Aperion Verus Grand Towers... since the price is very good, and they look pretty impressive on paper (or screen rather). I'm hoping there is going to be a full review of them soon on here.

 

[sholling]

High end shops are getting rare as hen's teeth anywhere including California. Heck I'm so far out in the sticks the closest thing we have to a high end shop in town is Sears. Anyway if you do make a trip to the LA area I'd plan to visit Hsu Research and listen to subwoofers and Ascend Acoustics to hear both his towers and bookshelves, and Rythmik's subwoofers. Both are by appointment only but worth listening to and the people are really down to earth.

Jim Salk is another really nice guy and has a list of customers across the country that have volunteered to open their homes to fellow audio nuts.

 

[digicidal]

sholling, there is a lot of electricity flowing around the new Sierra tower, wow! I agree the OP needs to get out and listen to options available, no better suggestion.

Just read up on them, actually had never heard of Ascend. The Sierra 1's plots are almost unbelieveably flat - does any one have experience with them? (I'll search after the post and keep reading on their forums too, but it seems most of the regulars on here are a little more 'critical' when in comes to reviews). For the price I could pick up 5 monitors and later upgrade the fronts to the towers perhaps and then have a 7.1 system when I did... of course, then I have to deal with stands and wires on the floor... which is where I might get some static from my wife... although if I sprang for the upgraded finishes on all of them... she might not mind as much.

 

[sholling]

Just read up on them, actually had never heard of Ascend. The Sierra 1's plots are almost unbelieveably flat - does any one have experience with them? (I'll search after the post and keep reading on their forums too, but it seems most of the regulars on here are a little more 'critical' when in comes to reviews). For the price I could pick up 5 monitors and later upgrade the fronts to the towers perhaps and then have a 7.1 system when I did... of course, then I have to deal with stands and wires on the floor... which is where I might get some static from my wife... although if I sprang for the upgraded finishes on all of them... she might not mind as much.

I run Salk Song Towers with the optional ribbon tweeters in my family room, and three Ascend Sierra-1s in my master bedroom so I have a little experience with the Sierra-1s. The owners of both are fanatics for ruler flat output and Jim Salk's cabinetry is legendary. The standard Sierra-1 finish is finely finished natural bamboo which I like a lot. The Sierra-1s are outstanding < $1000/pr speakers. I just upgraded mine to the brand new NrT tweeters and all I can say is wow. The initial batch of tweeters and crossovers were sold as as upgrades to existing Sierra-1 owners and I'm not sure when they will be included in production speakers.

 

[digicidal]

I just found and am reading the review on here of the Sierra-1s - and I had to laugh and my own lack of observation in missing them in your sig. Although in my defence you do have a veritable truckload of toys in your sig.

Since my main criteria is detail (clarity, resolution, ???) - I've heard/read dozens of subjective terms - but as with many aspects of audio... plain descriptions are often difficult to 'craft'. I guess in laymans terms, I'm looking for speakers that are fullrange (either by themselves or with a well integrated sub or two) but have a complete lack of 'crossover coloring'. I think that's why I've managed to put up with my Fostex single-driver's for so long... although they're rolled off horribly top and bottom... for everything in between they sound totally 'real'... when there is a car crash in a movie... I still find myself wanting to go open my front door to make sure that my car wasn't one of the victims... or when I hear atmospheric birds chirping in a scene - it sounds identical to how it sounds in the spring when I have my windows open.

In all of my auditions - only the Maggies had that "there has to be an actual piano in front of me that I just can't see for some reason" sound to them. Even the Magico's had a very slight signature to the sound - although I'm not really experienced enough to be sure, I believe it's the crossover areas that are creating that sensation. (Wish I knew as much about audio as I do about computers... but maybe someday).

In your opinion, between the Song Towers and the Sierra-1s - do you find yourself enjoying movies more on one and music more on the other. Although I do most of my listening to music, I'd love to find something that had fantastic resolution and 'rightness' while still sounding a little relaxed. I add that last bit because I've auditioned a few high-end electrostatics which had the resolution and tonal presence I like, but the sound was a little too forward for my tastes... more like a very good pair of headphones than a visitor seat in a studio session.

However, I'll be the first to admit that my experience with different models and methods of sound reproduction is nowhere near where I would like it to be. Example: I've always hated every factory car audio system ever, and always shunned any form of DSP/EQ modes to correct for it, and found it especially to be the case in systems with widely spaced component speakers.... until I bought my IS350 and spent time listening to the Mark Levinson setup... now suddenly I see things in a different light. Still sounds like a car interior (read 'crappulent') - but good enough to make me want to have much better sound at home.

 

[sholling]

This is where you'll need to get out and listen. Only your ears will tell you if you will enjoy a speaker.

 

[jostenmeat]

I add that last bit because I've auditioned a few high-end electrostatics which had the resolution and tonal presence I like, but the sound was a little too forward for my tastes... more like a very good pair of headphones than a visitor seat in a studio session.

I believe this is probably due to the loss of SPL at only an inverse rate with distance when discussing electrostats, as opposed to an exponential loss of SPL with point source speakers. Regardless, if you are space constrained, I'd look elsewhere.

Your awesome budget for treatments means you can get very WAF friendly stuff like the GIK art panels. Otherwise, I suppose you could also save a ton by doing some DIY art on some Chameleon traps, using dye.

For Salk speakers, you could again save a ton on building the ER18 (look in the DIY subforum). Excluding only the MDF and glue, but everything else included like feet, posts, etc, it's like only $275 a speaker, and it's closest relative is the $2100 (each) Veracity HT2-TL. Same speaker designer.

They are ugly supposedly, but you might want to listen to some Vandersteens. I've never heard them, but have reason to believe that you should find a pair to listen to.

 

[sholling]

For Salk speakers, you could again save a ton on building the ER18 (look in the DIY subforum). Excluding only the MDF and glue, but everything else included like feet, posts, etc, it's like only $275 a speaker, and it's closest relative is the $2100 (each) Veracity HT2-TL. Same speaker designer.

I was under the impression that 40% of the cost of a Salk was materials.

 

[jostenmeat]

I was under the impression that 40% of the cost of a Salk was materials.

The HT2-TL uses superior bass drivers, at considerably higher cost. Still SEAS, but the DIY version uses less expensive paper reed cones. Then between the choice of ribbon and dome, they will require different xover components. I would only do domes here for better vertical dispersion, and for full disclosure of my audio nervosa, I do second guess the vertical MTM for surely inaudible lobing effects when displaced vertically by a small handful of degrees. I mean, while it may only be measurable, why not go for the best design possible for the application? Yet, I still lean towards them for my first DIY speakers, if only due to a lack of better ideas, ATM.

As for 40%, I don't know, and have no reason to believe you're wrong. Still, it's the speaker that most closely resembles the DIY version. Doesn't mean they're identical, because they're not.

 

[GranteedEV]

The idea of a pair of RBH T-1/Rs sitting atop a pair of Rythmik F25s just hit me

 

[sholling]

As for 40%, I don't know, and have no reason to believe you're wrong. Still, it's the speaker that most closely resembles the DIY version. Doesn't mean they're identical, because they're not.

Thanks, I was just curious. If I had the skills and space I'd give that project a try just for grins. Unfortunately I have neither woodworking skills or talent.

 

[jostenmeat]

Thanks, I was just curious. If I had the skills and space I'd give that project a try just for grins. Unfortunately I have neither woodworking skills or talent.

Neither do I!

I started slow, and just this very year. Subwoofer kit, all precut, so screw 'n glue (and even then the overall thing was still a challenge for noobie me). Then the speaker repair where I didn't even immediately diagnose a missing magnet, or have much success in understanding how to use a multimeter in order to figure out a xover's circuit. But, a replacement driver, replacement xover, some wood glue, and she's golden. Then the false wall, where I got my first real crash course. Well, it was so fun, and I admit I had the HUGE benefit of my friend showing me the ropes . . .

But this friend is now very busy, he's booked all the way through March. This is one of the main reasons I'd need to buy my own tools, if only because I want to try to take on more of it myself . . .

Dive right in!

(easy for me to say . . . )

 

[digicidal]

...They are ugly supposedly, but you might want to listen to some Vandersteens. I've never heard them, but have reason to believe that you should find a pair to listen to.

Actually, I have heard a pair of the Model 7s (I think... might have been the Model 5s though - I forget except that they looked remarkably like Wilson's to me in design so it had to be one of those two). I did really like them - but they would definitely be going in a totally different direction (and price). I cannot remember what they cost because it was quite awhile ago but it seems to me they weren't much less than the Sophia's - so probably 20-30K. I like to dream as much as the next guy - but if I had a budget of 40K or so including electronics... I'd just build a 35K building in my back yard and stick the $2K maggies in that with a couple of XPA-1s and call it the 'audio room' for the same money.

Not to mention that I can throw my back out moving a 15" sub around the room - so a 150lb+ speaker is pretty much a no-go for several reasons regardless of cost.

I'm starting to think that I may just want to set up my living room for really good surround sound for movies and put off having a high-end 2CH setup for either another house (with unfinished basement hopefully) or actually do the idea above and have a casita built in my backyard to be a guest house / man-cave sometime in the next year or so.

Thanks for the suggestions however - you are right on with my liking the sound from the Vandersteens. They're the "boxes without any box sound" quality I prefer for stereo.

 

[GranteedEV]

So I want to build one system for everything - I'll sell off / give away all of my current gear or use it in bedroom system(s). I really don't have a budget per se - however, I have some other financial goals - so lets say $5K as a ballpark.

What would I get for just stereo listening? Either a Salk HT2-TL or...

maybe something like

1 DEQX HDP-Express + Calibration Kit (~$3000)
1 Emotiva UPA-7 Amplifier for Tri-Amping ($599 right now)

Then about $1000 on drivers and 400 on cabinet materials etc (which is probably being very generous...)

I would use the Zaph ZA14W08 as an (M)MTM(M) midrange driver and build from there in a proper 3(.5)-way, taking full advantage of the steep DEQX slopes along the way so that my woofer and tweeter choices are more broad.

For the box I would

-curve the baffle like the revel salon2, as well as use that sort of CNC'd waveguide tweeter if possible
-Have open backed/transmission line boxes for the midrange drivers like the Jim holtz statements and Salk Soundscape
-Make it as big as needed for a Q around .5 to .577