suspended ceiling help

2fast2

Audiophyte
Hi,
I have a dedicated theater room (new construction) in the basement. 13'5" W by 16'10" long with 9'6" ceiling height. The rear 6' is an 18" elevated platform. Walls are standard drywall, floor is carpet over urethane pad over concrete or 3/4" wood decking.
My initial plan was to use black 2x2 suspended ceiling with acoustical tiles, to enable easy access to the multitude of pipes in the floor trusses above, and allow future wiring if I change speaker positions or add two more rear surrounds. My challenge is finding the ceiling materials (I am a DIYer.)
Should I just use Armstrong as available at the local home center? I want to keep cost down as much as possible. I googled and found lots of VERY expensive 2x2 panels, some of which could be much more than $10 per square ft. I've got 225+ square feet here, that gets too expensive in a hurry.
Would I be better off using a standard tlle and just laying some acoustic mat above the tiles?
I should mention, above the room is laundry. Bedrooms are on the opposite side of the house or up to top floor. I would like to cut sound transmission from the room out, but have no big concerns with outside noise into the room (live in the country.)
Thanks for the great site and any help you can offer.
Jim
 
Glenn Kuras

Glenn Kuras

Full Audioholic
You can use the standard tiles from any home depo. Just make sure they are not rigid.
 

2fast2

Audiophyte
Standard tiles, meaning fiberglass with ?vinyl? skin? And solid meaning some kind of pressed ?cardboard? stuff?

Sounds like you're saying I can go cheap and I'll be happy. If that is the case, you're right :D

Thanks for your replies!

Jim
 
B

bpape

Audioholic Chief
Fill the space above with insualtion for additional control of sound both ways and to damp the cavity and provide some broadband bass absorbtion.

Bryan
 

2fast2

Audiophyte
Bryan, just regular fiberglass insulation -- batts?
My plans were to hang the suspended ceiling down 3 or 4 inches below the floor trusses. The truss area is fairly full of HVAC duct, plumbing and sewer lines, and central vac pipe. Do you think adding the insulation would be significant enough to change the plans and hang the ceiling 6 or 8 inched down to go below all that with insulation?
I sure appreciate all the help.
Jim
 
S

Scott R. Foster

Junior Audioholic
Typiclaly you don't want to use the vinyl skinned tiles - these make for easy cleaning but the skin will diminish the broadband absorptive qualities of the tiles. For optimized broadband performance you want the more typical fissured style tiles.

For a topper you might want to look at fiberglass batts in the high density flavor - such as the Owens Corning R30C or R38C


http://www.owenscorning.com/around/insulation/products/highdensity.asp
 
RLA

RLA

Audioholic Chief
Hello,

If this is to be a suspended ceiling with metal ridged suspended grid you need to add mass to the suspended tiles. I have installed a few suspend ceilings in high end home theaters and the one thing you need consider is frame rattling. This will drive you crazy unless you take the necessary steps to prevent it. Adding insulation above the frame will help but will not solve the problem of the ceiling tiles vibrating when high LFE levels are generated. To correct this problem double up on the amount of hangers and wire as specified for your suspended ceiling install to make sure the frame can support additional weight. Make sure the grid is perfectly level and all suspension wire is tight from the grid to the hanger. Before you install the ceiling tiles into the frame grid, glue ½-inch sheetrock on the back side of the ceiling tile. This will load the light ceiling tile against the grid. Some manufacturers make ceiling tiles with more mass and weight but I have only been able to find them in 2x2-foot Glacier white. The Black USG 4 x 2 ceiling tiles are not heavy enough. If you paint a white ceiling tile you will diminish the tiles acoustical absorption properties. You can special order the black USG tiles and black grid from Home Depot, Lowes or check out a wholesale drywall distributor. If you are in Southern California I have about $1500 worth of black tiles and grid in like new condition that I will give you just for helping me remove it ;)
 
S

Scott R. Foster

Junior Audioholic
RLA said:
Hello,

If this is to be a suspended ceiling with metal ridged suspended grid you need to add mass to the suspended tiles. I have installed a few suspend ceilings in high end home theaters and the one thing you need consider is frame rattling. This will drive you crazy unless you take the necessary steps to prevent it. Adding insulation above the frame will help but will not solve the problem of the ceiling tiles vibrating when high LFE levels are generated. To correct this problem double up on the amount of hangers and wire as specified for your suspended ceiling install to make sure the frame can support additional weight. Make sure the grid is perfectly level and all suspension wire is tight from the grid to the hanger. Before you install the ceiling tiles into the frame grid, glue ½-inch sheetrock on the back side of the ceiling tile. This will load the light ceiling tile against the grid. Some manufacturers make ceiling tiles with more mass and weight but I have only been able to find them in 2x2-foot Glacier white. The Black USG 4 x 2 ceiling tiles are not heavy enough. If you paint a white ceiling tile you will diminish the tiles acoustical absorption properties. You can special order the black USG tiles and black grid from Home Depot, Lowes or check out a wholesale drywall distributor. If you are in Southern California I have about $1500 worth of black tiles and grid in like new condition that I will give you just for helping me remove it ;)
RLA:

Interesting...

I understand the problem you have addressed with the drywall and can see where it could be a necessary but I wonder if one does not diminish the ability to use the space above the tiles as a giant broadband absorber through the addition of pink fluffy by adding the drywall squares to the back side of the tiles. Perhaps not, but I wonder.

Could one, do you suppose, use a denser mineral fiber such as perhaps 8 lbs pcf rockwool and get the broadband effect and the rattle control you have found desirable in high SPL / low frequency home theaters? A 4" batt on a 2x2' tile would weigh +/- 10 lbs. - do you reckon that would be enough?

PS: I am aware [anecdotally] of a number of tests on painted ceiling tiles using very light - spray on -layers of thinned paint on fissured ceiling tiles [as I recall the work was done by Isover - a giant European firm that makes insulation and ceiling tiles etcetera]. They found that as long as you kept the paint techniques such that the fissures are not bridged that you can tint the tiles without any material change in acoustic absorption. You might have to play around a bit with the spray gun and the thinning of the paint, but FWIW I am reliably informed that it can be done.
 
RLA

RLA

Audioholic Chief
Could one, do you suppose, use a denser mineral fiber such as perhaps 8 lbs pcf rockwool and get the broadband effect and the rattle control you have found desirable in high SPL / low frequency home theaters? A 4" batt on a 2x2' tile would weigh +/- 10 lbs. - do you reckon that would be enough?
As long as it loads the tile against the frame. Insulation batts like R-24/R-28 won’t load the tile because the surface rests against the frame and not the back of the tile. Another trick is to use rope calk between the grid frame and the front of the tile were it makes contact. Rattles in the frame can be difficult to fix and recessed lighting in suspended ceiling tiles is a nightmare. The first step is to make the frame as ridged as possible before a ceiling tile is even installed. This is accomplished using a lot of suspension wire and many hangers on the grid frame. If I needed a suspended ceiling in my home theater I would seriously consider a custom built grid made from wood that would accommodate many layers of large tile. I really hate the metal snap together grid.

PS: I am aware [anecdotally] of a number of tests on painted ceiling tiles using very light - spray on -layers of thinned paint on fissured ceilin
I guess this would be ok, a fog coat if you will. I was specifically talking about folks that grab a paint roller and a bucket of paint to change the color.
 
Savant

Savant

Audioholics Resident Acoustics Expert
Some information that might help:

Good discussion of "acoustical" ceilings here. (I contributed to the page, back in the day...)

An alternative to wire hangers for added isolation for a massive ceiling here.

Some other thoughts:
• "Standard" ceiling tiles from a home improvement store typically do not offer a very high NRC. Make sure whatever you're buying has a minimum NRC rating of about 0.80-0.90. The ceiling tiles at home improvement stores are usually in the 0.55 range - IMO, not what you want for a home theater space.

• The non-bridging paint idea for the tiles is fine. However, my experience is that the acoustical properties will be degraded to a small degree. Not nearly as much as if a normal paint is used, but there will be a measurable decrease in absorption.

• If you do wind up painting the tiles, all the more reason to make sure they have a high NRC to start with.

• IMO, the drywall-backed tiles are preferred to the mineral fiber-backed tiles. The drywall provides more (relative) low frequency absorption when placed behind the tiles. Insulation behind the entire arrangement is important, though (mineral fiber or otherwise). The drywall simply adds mass for isolation and provides a diaphragmatic effect = doubly beneficial.
 
RLA

RLA

Audioholic Chief
IMO, the drywall-backed tiles are preferred to the mineral fiber-backed tiles
Hello,
In subjective testing I can verify that the dry-wall approach does work. Now if you have the funds to do both great but if it’s only one I would choose drywall. The drywall adds mass and weight to the entire frame. The weight of the drywall is distributed over the entire frame grid and this more than anything will help for rattle and resonance of the frame. The drywall does little if anything for sound isolation or transmission between floors, but that is another issue where good insulation or rock wool can really be effective. If you have the cash a combo of the two would be highly effective

PS if anyone wants a black suspended ceiling I have an estimated 228 sq ft (12x19) that is yours for the taking in new condition for helping me take it down. The ceiling is going in the trash next week so if you are in the LA area and want about $1000 worth of black grid and tiles PM me.
 
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