surround speaker height for two different ear levels

[supervij]

I know the following questions are the very definition of “read the gorram FAQ” or variations thereof, but bear with me here . . .

My direct-radiating surround speakers are presently on stands roughly at 110 degrees from the centre speaker, facing each other. The tweeters for the surrounds are roughly at ear level. Now when it's just me watching a movie/TV show, it's fine, but when I'm watching with my girlfriend, I sorta lose whatever's happening from the speaker on the other side. Due to room geography, I can’t simply move the speakers a little bit further back. So I figure I ought to finally get those speakers elevated, as is recommended. But the question is how high?

“Direct Radiating surrounds usually perform best when placed behind and slightly higher than the listening position, spread apart the same distance as the mains and slightly toed in.”

This is what’s mentioned for surround speaker placement in the “Set Up Your System” section of Audioholics. But what exactly is meant by “slightly higher”? According to a whole lot of a/v sites I visited thanks to Google, it ranges anywhere from one to three feet above seated ear level. One suggestion was to put it at ear level when standing straight up. Yet another suggestion was that the ear must be able to “see” the surround speaker, even when someone is sitting next to you, which translates (to me) as pretty darn high up. So what’s the consensus on the height level? And should I also consider the second row? It's behind the couch, used only maybe two or three times a year, and the ear level in that second row is 10 inches higher than on the couch?

I know that I could simply experiment with different heights, but that requires the help of two people – one to hold the speaker, and one to sit with me on the couch. And it’s not easy getting friends to come visit; I recently moved to a location that’s pretty remote and a pain to get to for most of them. And I really want to get this done now.

Okay, bottom line:
1. What’s the consensus on surround speaker height? And
2. Should I also take into account the higher ear level in the second row that’s used only two or three times a year?

I know this question has been asked many times, but the plain fact is that it has many answers. So thanks for any advice you can give!

cheers,
supervij

 

[fredejo]

i just had that same problem. i had a pair of focal sib's that i had on a pair of sanus speaker stands (31" i think), i added another piece of wood in the middle & painted it black, the speakers are now 5ft in the air & you can hear them w/ 3 other people on my couch, it took a while to get the exact height & angles right but it was well worth it. i didnt have any help so i got the height where i thought they should be & then luckily my speakers had the adjustable plate so i could angle them down. hope that helps, good luck.

 

[supervij]

Hey fredejo, thanks for writing. Unfortunately, my speaker stands are fixed in height. I was thinking of adding a shelf to the walls on either side of the couch. I just have to figure out at what height to install them.

With my ears at 36" in the primary seating position, I suppose I'll try to elevate those surrounds so that the tweeters are at 66", which is two and a half feet above the ears. I suppose that's a good compromise. The tweeters at that height is only twenty inches above the ears in the second row, but that row is hardly ever in use.

Does that sound okay? Is the twenty inches too little?

cheers,
supervij

 

[fredejo]

as far as twenty inches im not sure. im not an expert but with mine being roughly 2-3ft above ear level (depending on if the seat is reclined) they sound great to me & my friends. i put them as high as possible b/c everything i read mentioned how high a movie theater had them. up high on the walls, that way there is no bad seat. my speakers are also direct radiating. these guys on this site know way more than i do - they should chime in at anytime & give you more specifics.

 

[mfabien]

Here is a picture of one of my surrounds mounted on a pivoting bracket near the ceiling. Works fine.

 

[supervij]

mfabien, how high up is that speaker? Is it all the way up near the ceiling? How many feet above the listener's ears?

I don't really want to wall/ceiling mount my speakers; I prefer to have them more accessible, so I'm planning on just setting them on a couple of shelves. Facing each other, one on either side of the couch, and about a foot or so behind. (This would place them roughly between the couch and the not-often-used second row.) But before I install the shelves, I want to have a good idea at what height to have them.

I suppose I'll try to have the tweeters at 70". With the ears at the main listening area being at 36", that's just under three feet higher. And with the ears at the second row being at 46", that's two feet higher. The second row doesn't get used often, though. Still, whatchoo guys think?

cheers,
supervij

 

[mfabien]

The middle of the speaker is at 80" from the floor and the listening ear at 44". Therefore, the same difference you are aiming at, 36".

 

[AVRat]

I would suggest 6', so you're in the ballpark.

 

[Pyrrho]

I know the following questions are the very definition of “read the gorram FAQ” or variations thereof, but bear with me here . . .

My direct-radiating surround speakers are presently on stands roughly at 110 degrees from the centre speaker, facing each other. The tweeters for the surrounds are roughly at ear level. Now when it's just me watching a movie/TV show, it's fine, but when I'm watching with my girlfriend, I sorta lose whatever's happening from the speaker on the other side. Due to room geography, I can’t simply move the speakers a little bit further back. So I figure I ought to finally get those speakers elevated, as is recommended. But the question is how high?

“Direct Radiating surrounds usually perform best when placed behind and slightly higher than the listening position, spread apart the same distance as the mains and slightly toed in.”

This is what’s mentioned for surround speaker placement in the “Set Up Your System” section of Audioholics. But what exactly is meant by “slightly higher”? According to a whole lot of a/v sites I visited thanks to Google, it ranges anywhere from one to three feet above seated ear level. One suggestion was to put it at ear level when standing straight up. Yet another suggestion was that the ear must be able to “see” the surround speaker, even when someone is sitting next to you, which translates (to me) as pretty darn high up. So what’s the consensus on the height level? And should I also consider the second row? It's behind the couch, used only maybe two or three times a year, and the ear level in that second row is 10 inches higher than on the couch?

I know that I could simply experiment with different heights, but that requires the help of two people – one to hold the speaker, and one to sit with me on the couch. And it’s not easy getting friends to come visit; I recently moved to a location that’s pretty remote and a pain to get to for most of them. And I really want to get this done now.

Okay, bottom line:
1. What’s the consensus on surround speaker height? And
2. Should I also take into account the higher ear level in the second row that’s used only two or three times a year?

I know this question has been asked many times, but the plain fact is that it has many answers. So thanks for any advice you can give!

cheers,
supervij

Basically, your problem seems to be that your girlfriend's head is in the way of the speaker on her side. This means that you need to elevate it so that there is a direct line between you and it such that she is not directly in between. You should be able to turn your head and see it when she is sitting next to you. (With a direct radiating speaker, typically they sound best when aimed directly at you, which means that you may need to have it tilted downward if it is significantly above you.) Of course, you do not say how close she is sitting, and if her head is pressed up against your head, there is nothing to be done except sit differently, which I would advise against, as being cozy with a girlfriend is much more important than having good sound. By the way, Dolby makes excellent suggestions for setups when one cannot place things ideally, as well as for when one can. Maybe there should be a "sticky" somewhere with a link for telling people how to set up their speakers....

Regarding your second question, that depends on whether you care how it sounds to those in the other row or not. It may be that the added height that will be enough for your first issue will be enough for this as well, though you have not said how much higher it is.

 

[supervij]

Hey guys, thanks for the posts. mfabien, that's pretty reassuring that your surrounds are at the same height as what I'm thinking about. AVRat, thanks for your advice too. Pyrrho, I did what you suggested: I sat my gal down next to me in the position we're usually in when we're eating . . . dinner. And I looked over and up to see what spot would work out, and it came to about five feet off the ground (or two feet above ear level). I think that I am going to go a little bit higher.

As I said the ears for the second row are about 10" higher than the couch, so they're just gonna have to deal with the surrounds being about two feet above.

Should I really be tilting my surrounds downward? The surrounds at the cinema aren't tilted down. Oh well. I'll try it both ways. Thanks guys!

cheers,
supervij

 

[BMO]

I have towers for surrounds. They lay flat at an a height of 8'0, tilted to aim at listeners position.This was the only available mounting height I had.I did play quite a bit with the right tilt angle to get an enveloping sound.

 

[xboxweasel]

I used to have my surrounds (and backs) mounted at approximately 5 feet from the floor (approx 2 feet above seated ear level). At that height it was difficult to hear anything from the surrounds. The backs are not used much. I hardly ever turn them on when I watch movies.

I found 5' to be too high. So I dropped the surrounds by a foot and I like it a lot better. The rears I left where they were. Cannot move them anyways because of the furniture.

These particular speakers are tri-pole (I think). It most probably depends on the speaker style.

A lot of speaker set up guidelines that I read mainly contradict one another. But one thing they all say is to play around and find something that works for you.

 

[supervij]

Hang on . . . they lay flat AND they're tilted? 'Kay, I know I'm a newbie and all, but huh? Wha--?

I'll give the whole tilting thing a try, just for kicks. I'm always up for a little tweaking or re-positioning, all in the interests of getting better sound.

cheers,
supervij

 

[supervij]

Tripoles at two feet above seated ear level and you still couldn't hear much?! Yeesh. I'm starting to dread putting up these darn shelves. What if I do find that they're too high? Then what? Argh! Well, I guess I can only hope that tilted monopoles at three feet above seated ear level (ASEL for short?) will do the trick. I'll be doing it early tomorrow afternoon. Cross yer fingers for me!

cheers,
supervij

PS: My rear surround is pretty much fixed at three feet five inches ASEL and the sound is perfect. So I think having the surrounds at three feet ASEL should be fine. At least, I hope so.

 

[xboxweasel]

I'm starting to dread putting up these darn shelves. What if I do find that they're too high? Then what?

What I ended up with is 4 screws in the wall. 2 for 5" centers and 2 for 4" centers. When I watch movies in 5.1 I drop them down. When I listen to CDs in 7 speaker stereo I raise them (helps to fill the room better). All personal preference.

Rig something up to hold them while you listen. Or hire a couple of neighborhood kids to hold them up for a few hours. hehehehehe. Pepperoni pizza goes a long way. Or used to anyways.

 

[supervij]

Not a bad idea about four screws. I might give that a try. Thanks!

cheers,
supervij

 

[Pyrrho]

Hey guys, thanks for the posts. mfabien, that's pretty reassuring that your surrounds are at the same height as what I'm thinking about. AVRat, thanks for your advice too. Pyrrho, I did what you suggested: I sat my gal down next to me in the position we're usually in when we're eating . . . dinner. And I looked over and up to see what spot would work out, and it came to about five feet off the ground (or two feet above ear level). I think that I am going to go a little bit higher.

As I said the ears for the second row are about 10" higher than the couch, so they're just gonna have to deal with the surrounds being about two feet above.

Should I really be tilting my surrounds downward? The surrounds at the cinema aren't tilted down. Oh well. I'll try it both ways. Thanks guys!

cheers,
supervij

At the cinema you attend, do they use direct radiating speakers or dipoles? Also, at the cinema, they are attempting to make the sound alright for as much of the audience as possible, not optimal for anyone in particular. You are only interested in how it sounds in at most two rows. Additionally, the aiming of the speaker matters less the further you are away from them, as the angle is what matters. So, unless your home theater room is the same size as a cinema....

The bottom line is, whatever you like is how it should be. So whether you angle them or not is up to you.

For many suggestions on speaker placement, you might want to visit www.dolby.com which not only says where things should be ideally, but also makes many different recommendations for when speakers cannot be ideally placed. It is the best source I have seen for speaker placement.

 

[Pyrrho]

What I ended up with is 4 screws in the wall. 2 for 5" centers and 2 for 4" centers. When I watch movies in 5.1 I drop them down. When I listen to CDs in 7 speaker stereo I raise them (helps to fill the room better). All personal preference.

Rig something up to hold them while you listen. Or hire a couple of neighborhood kids to hold them up for a few hours. hehehehehe. Pepperoni pizza goes a long way. Or used to anyways.

The downside to moving your speakers for different things is that for optimal sound, you need to readjust the levels and delays every time you move them. If you have a receiver with an automatic setup, this can help considerably, but it is still quite a bother. Of course, if you don't want optimal sound, you don't need to readjust anything.

 

[xboxweasel]

Optimal Sound

I'm not too worried about that. I have my setup calibrated for the 4' height, that's when I watch movies. When I listen to 7 speaker stereo there are so many sound waves coming from multiple sources that it is going to be difficult to calibrate the system. I just want to fill the whole room in that case (the 5' height).

I did a 7.1 speaker stereo to a 2.1 comparison. 2.1 sounds better. But you have to be sitting closer to the front speakers. I don't like the sound if I run 2.1 and I'm at the other end of the room. That's why I use 7.1. At the far end is where the dining table is. Hence, where we hang out to play games, eat, whatever. So having sound envelope you is better because you can turn it down but still hear it and have a conversation at the same time.

I tried to measure the flatness (and I'll use the term loosely) of my system in 7.1 and 2.1. Let's just say they both sucked. But that would be really difficult to calibrate in a 7.1 setup. Too much interference coming at you from all over the place. That's why you see most hardcore acoustically treated listening rooms only a 2.0 (sometimes a 2.1) setup. It does sound much better.

 

[supervij]

I wound up putting up the two shelves (both at the same height, no extra screws anywhere else), so that the tweeters are at three feet ASEL. I ran YPAO and kept the results (while also keeping my original multichannel settings as well -- I prefer the surrounds to be at ear height and behind me for 5.1 music). Unfortunately, I haven't had much time to try it out. I watched the first chapter of Ice Age (the scrat trying to avoid the shards of ice), and it sounded pretty good. It was hard to detect from where the sound was coming from, which, I guess, is the whole point of surrounds. But the flip side of that is I kept wondering if they were loud enough. I'll have at it with my SPL meter, but for now, I *might* wind up increasing the surrounds by 0.5 dB or even 1 dB.

I've also angled them down *slightly*. Not so much that it's directed to the ears but above them. I asked Athena (the makers of my speakers) what they thought about the whole angling thing, and they said, "A common way to mount rears is to ensure they are placed high enough so that the drivers do not fire directly at your ears when you're sitting down. If your surround speakers fire directly at your ears, they can overpower your front speakers." But of course, I can always lower the levels on them if that were to happen.

Pyrrho, the dolby site is a good one, but it doesn't say much about surround height and angles. The pic they provide has all the speakers except for the two rears pointing directly at the listener. And that can apparently go either way. I think for now I've reached a nice spot. I'll keep playing around with tilting angles, but for now, I'm happy.

Thanks youse guys!

cheers,
supervij