Surround back info processed through Atmos top back?

N

New_Guy

Enthusiast
Apologies for the ignorance, but would appreciate some knowledge here…
My theater is setup in a mixed use space, and surround backs are not possible.
My “end game” setup for the current space, Will probably have to be 5.2.4 (which is still pretty awesome, I’m lucky).

My question is: Does Dolby processing (on a Atmos enabled receiver) do any sort of “matrixing” such that info meant for surround back speakers will be presented through Atmos top back channels (when surround back’s are not present but Atmos top back’s are)?

I’m curious if I will get some sort of virtualized surround back effects, or if the top backs will strictly present top back information.

Denon x4700H (2022) 9.2 ch amplification, 11.2 ch processing w/all the current standard playback/processing modes.

Current configuration: 5.2.2.
However, I have 2 more in ceiling speakers en route.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
Short version is no, but it’s possible that some objects may be placed in the rear heights/tops. This would just depend on the track. Also if your upmixing with DSU or DTSnx you might get some up there too. With careful placement though, the surrounds can present imaging behind you. Similar to how you can have a phantom image between mains. I’d recommend 110° placement to help with that.
My main room has 7.x.4 and would definitely not go lower, but I’m fortunate than I don’t have to. 5.x.4 can definitely be awesome, and I wouldn’t worry about losing rear surrounds.
 
N

New_Guy

Enthusiast
This 5.2.2 sounds really quite good (arendal 1961 bed, w/2 1961 sealed subs, and RSL C34E II for top front, front stage powered by Emotiva, the rest by the Denon x4700H)

Im curious of others experience, transitioning from 5.2.2 to 5.2.4… what to expect, is it worth while???

The wires are run, the in ceiling speakers aren’t remarkably expensive, but… is the juice worth the squeeze?
… should I expect a significant/ noticeable improvement with adding the 2 top back, Atmos channel speakers?


The RSL C34E II, have the angled baffle…
Maybe w/appropriately placed top back, combined with appropriately placed side surround (~110*) one might achieve a fulfilling, impactful and imaged soundstage to the rear???

But again, is it worth it/noticeable in practice?
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
It sounds like we are talking about "back" surrounds? Those are not that useful IMO. That sound information would be redirected to side surrounds and you would get sufficient effect between the rear heights and the sides. I would say going to .4 would be worthwhile. I am 5.1.2 and satisfied. I have the processing but need to add an amp to go to .4
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
This 5.2.2 sounds really quite good (arendal 1961 bed, w/2 1961 sealed subs, and RSL C34E II for top front, front stage powered by Emotiva, the rest by the Denon x4700H)

Im curious of others experience, transitioning from 5.2.2 to 5.2.4… what to expect, is it worth while???

The wires are run, the in ceiling speakers aren’t remarkably expensive, but… is the juice worth the squeeze?
… should I expect a significant/ noticeable improvement with adding the 2 top back, Atmos channel speakers?


The RSL C34E II, have the angled baffle…
Maybe w/appropriately placed top back, combined with appropriately placed side surround (~110*) one might achieve a fulfilling, impactful and imaged soundstage to the rear???

But again, is it worth it/noticeable in practice?
Imo. Yes the juice is worth the squeeze. Basically you’re adding the ability to pan from front to back and have better object placement into the room. The whole thing is more immersive. I also use c34e’s and IME with them, they’re fantastic.
 
N

New_Guy

Enthusiast
Thanks for the reply guys. Well appreciated.

I think I’ll go ahead n cut the holes and drop the wires for the last two speakers, to realize my “end game” here.

I put in a solid amount of work finding a reasonable place to pull wires down in wall from the attic (into a closet so I could put blank out plates rather than patch sheet rock for all 3 fire stops, also gives me a channel for the future if I need to do anything else), then pull baseboards and notch out the bottom to run all 4 lines, then reinstall all the baseboards, caulk/ paint/ finish.

The two Atmos channels really did change the game. Truly a new level of immersion. My system was good, but it changed (for the better) with atmos….
I put in the work, and my floor plan will allow it (this avenue is all my floor plan will allow anyway)…. I’ll go ahead and finish it up.

Fingers crossed, there’s is a further cumulative factor when I’m done and recalibrated.

Thanks for your feedback!
 
W

Wardog555

Audioholic
If you place the speakers properly at the right angles you will get an amazing experience!

Enjoy!
 
N

New_Guy

Enthusiast
HOLY POOP!!!!!

Yep, this is… better. There’s certainly a cumulative impact.

I’m certainly fortunate to have a solid bed layer, which I have always been happy with (5.2 all arendal 1961)… but, I’m curious, and I tinker, and I don’t mind putting in some work.
The addition of the 4 Atmos channels (in ceiling w/angled baffle imaged for MLP), is… well… the whole thing is a completely different beast.

First thing I put on: “Ready player one” race scene. The action over head, left to right/ right to left, front to back/ back to front…. It’s a truly awesome, immersive experience, that I didn’t realize I could have, in my living room.
WILD.

The effort put forth to do all in wall wiring for the in ceiling implementation, was, well… it kinda sucked lol.
It’s hot in the attic in Texas, and balancing on frame studs in blow in insulation isn’t a ton of fun, not to mention ripping up baseboard and notching sheetrock, plus all the measuring & remeasuring, the minor adjustment from aesthetic ideals to avoid studs (luckily I was able to find positions for all 4 that integrate well, and are in-line wit Dolby recommendations), and cutting new holes (luckily in a closet rather than the wall you always look at, patches there would likely draw attention)….
Needless to say, many MANY times I thought to myself: There’s no way it’ll “better enough” to warrant this horse pile.

But, it WAS.
This is awesome!

The level of immersion totally revitalized the entirety of the “AWEsome-ness” of my system and the movie experience. It’s a whole new thing now… it never sucked, but now it’s jus…. Like a whole thing, it’s sick.

All this to say: If you’re considering transitioning from a full bed layer system to an Atmos enabled configuration, and you’re able, DO IT.

Further, for me personally… I like clean, un-cluttered setups. Thus, I’m not a fan of “bouncey house” modules, nor would I want to mount them at the wall/ ceiling joint. I put in the work for in ceiling to enable a pure experience, without any (further) attention drawn to the equipment in my home…. and it was 100% worth it.

Closing notes:
A) I tried the Atmos modules on 2 different speaker lines, sitting atop the front towers.
There is absolutely no comparison to in ceiling.
B) Angled baffle may have a slight placebo affect… HOWEVER, when you take into account the impact of speaker placement and alignment for standard floor and surround speakers, so clearly visible in all the room measurements you take… I think there’s an argument for a in ceiling speaker that you can control the directivity and imaging of. In my mind, these RSL C34E’s are a great pairing for the arendal sound bed layer: angled baffle + a quasi - MTM configuration w/ quasi waveguide for both tweeter and driver, also, the dual 4.5” drivers aren’t far off that of the 1961’s 5.5” mid and bass drivers. Atmos doesn’t need to dig deep… that’s what multi-sub bass management is for.

Apologies for the brain vomit! Just wanted to follow up while it was fresh.

And enjoy whatever system you have… any setup is better than nothing, and home theater is fun!!!
 
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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
No worries! It’s nice to read about someone being excited about an upgrade. It’s funny, I just watched RP1 yesterday. FWIW it’s actually a 7.1.2 track, but you can’t even tell because it’s so well done. Great soundtrack, and eye candy.
 
N

New_Guy

Enthusiast
Also, my back is now pretty fawked thanks to this whole install.
Can’t wait for that to go away lol
Still: it was worth it.
 
N

New_Guy

Enthusiast
LoL, is it really “mastered” (or whatever it’s called) for 7.1.2?!
Gotta love upmixing/ processing!
I watched the same scene before installing the top rear…. it was my first in home “real” Atmos experience, and it sold me.
The additional 2 channels kick it up yet another notch.
Signal processing/ upmixing, whatever it’s called the industry processors/ AVRs do, to utilize our actual configuration for whatever a type of media is mastered to, is pretty wild tech.

Thanks for the info!
My dumb self, was still drooling at what I was hearing ᕕ(ᐛ)ᕗ
 
N

New_Guy

Enthusiast
Also, for what it’s worth, the attached is almost exactly what I ended up with in terms of layout, except:
- I have two subs, and an oblong/ open floor plan room. Best summation for me (sub wise) is 1 corner loaded the other ~ 2/3 down the front wall
- Also, thanks to room modes (I guess), I had to pull my front towers in just a hair from in line with the top front and top rear Atmos channels (I played with positions and measurements a bunch, and front L/R just a little inside alignment w/atmos channels was the right balance of aesthetics and linearity/ frequency response, thanks to front left fighting some nulls/modes, front left also more or less dictated my crossover point for front L and R)
 

Attachments

W

Wardog555

Audioholic
In terms of atmos placement. It doesn't need to be in line with the front speakers. I'll give you another document that has significantly more details and it's all angles based off the MLP.


Enjoy!
 
N

New_Guy

Enthusiast
That’s an excellent document, some really good information!
Thank you.
 
}Fear_Inoculum{

}Fear_Inoculum{

Senior Audioholic
Glad to hear @New_Guy I'm (literally) in the process of tearing my HT room apart to move my AV equipment to the next room, lower my surround speakers to ear level, and add the RSL C34E MKII speakers I bought in the spring for my Atmos layer. I'm trying to get that all done this weekend, but it might bleed over into next week. We'll see.
 
W

Wardog555

Audioholic
Also great to hear that you're enjoying atmos when it's effective especially like that ready player one race scene. It's my favorite scene for atmos and is a real highlight! It's crazy and over the top which is awesome!

You're welcome!
 
D

danielemartini

Audiophyte
It doesn't need to be in line with the front speakers. I'll give you another document that has significantly more details and it's all angles based off the MLP.




 
Last edited:
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Also great to hear that you're enjoying atmos when it's effective especially like that ready player one race scene. It's my favorite scene for atmos and is a real highlight! It's crazy and over the top which is awesome!

You're welcome!
The entire film Bladerunner 2049 has the most active Atmos I've heard.

Since it is Halloween, The Conjuring 2, the kitchen scene :)
 
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