Surge Protector

[nookiewacookie1]

So I just put together a new home theater, and read 3 articles on why its important to have power protection. I was thinking of getting the Panamax M8-AV Hi-Definition 8 Outlet Surge Protector which is half the price of the one recommended on this site.

I know nothing about highs, lows, and surges... I just know that I have never had an issue with it before, and am wondering if it's just good luck.

my budget is about $100 but I am trying to understand why I need to spend that much... or even more.

Help?

 

[ParadigmDawg]

You may get a few different responses arguing if these do anything vs. they are the best thing you can have.

I actually use the same one you listed in my bedroom. On my main system I just use an old MC that I have had for years.

I also really like this one: http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-PureAV®-Theater-Power-Console/dp/B000T9DHZW

 

[nookiewacookie1]

You may get a few different responses arguing if these do anything vs. they are the best thing you can have.

I actually use the same one you listed in my bedroom. On my main system I just use an old MC that I have had for years.

is it because you've had issues or because your insuring your investment?

 

[ParadigmDawg]

is it because you've had issues or because your insuring your investment?

Mainly so I have enough plugs to plug in all my crap. I have never had any kind of issue but it can't hurt to use these.

 

[nookiewacookie1]

Mainly so I have enough plugs to plug in all my crap. I have never had any kind of issue but it can't hurt to use these.

gotcha... but theres so many other things i could do with the other $90 i would save by buying the cheapo ones lol

 

[Hookedonc4]

Depending on your location you can talked to your power company. I have surge protection from the power company and I even have the insurance they offer.

 

[nookiewacookie1]

Depending on your location you can talked to your power company. I have surge protection from the power company and I even have the insurance they offer.

I'm in NJ and no dice... "1. The PSE&G’s standard service supply is alternating current with a nominal frequency of 60 Hertz (cycles
per second).
2. The PSE&G will supply primary service from distribution circuits at nominal 2400/4160 (4 kV) volts or
nominal 7620/13,200 (13 kV) volts, three phase, four wire, WYE. Determination of the supply voltage
shall be made by the PSE&G.
3. The PSE&G will normally supply primary service from voltage regulated circuits. It is impractical to
provide each and every customer on a distribution system with constant utilization voltage
corresponding to the nameplate voltage of his devices. It is the customer’s responsibility to provide and
install equipment which will operate properly within the range of standard voltage being supplied, which
can vary between 107% and 95% of nominal under emergency conditions. The normal expected range is
between 105% and 100%.
4. Protection of electrical equipment against harmonics, loss of voltage, under voltage, transient under
voltage or over voltage, voltage unbalance, phase reversal and short circuit currents is the responsibility
of the customer. This should be considered in the design of the customer's equipment and relaying.
5. It should be noted that short-term low-voltage dips occur on the PSE&G’s system. It is recommended
that time-delay, protective devices be installed on important motors or other critical equipment, but shall
not be installed on the incoming service entrance devices.
6. It is recommended that an uninterruptible power supply or a power conditioner device be installed by the
customer if continuity of service or quality service is required for critical computer or electronic
equipment."

 

[fuzz092888]

Personally I like APC, they've been in the power protection business for a long time, but mainly for computers and whatnot. They have a lineup of products geared towards HT use and I think it's pretty darn good. I've never had a problem either, but theres always a chance that something bad could happen and I get enough storms in upstate NY for me to want to provide some level of protection for my equipment.

I'm not going to rave about anything, but I have the APC S-15 and I really like it. It looks cool, I actually noticed the power conditioning helping out (noticeably less noise through the tweeter when the amp was plugged into it) and I have cable and internet all routed through it, as well as everything plugged into it.

I'm not saying go out, up your budget by 8X, or anything like that. I'm just saying that this is what I have, it seems to help so I don't regret buying it. That being said, before I got the APC I had everything plugged into a bunch of cheap surge protectors and everything worked more or less the same as it does now. The conditioning has made a little bit of a difference, but by no means a night and day.

 

[FirstReflection]

There are a number of different problems that you can potentially have with your power. The worst is lightning hitting your house, which is, of course, extremely rare and unlikely. And a simple surge protector won't do anything to guard against a full on lightning strike anyway. You need protection at the electrical panel itself for that, so it's a moot point in this discussion.

There can be a surge from the power company's end. And that's what a typical surge protector guards against. These are also rare, but it's a bit like any form of insurance. You never need it until you do! And then you're glad you have it

You can get dips and peaks in the voltage. Not full on surges or brown outs, but just variances above or below the nominal 115 Volt supply. A voltage regulator can keep the voltage steady. This isn't really necessary since almost all electronics are designed to use a range of voltages.

There can be electromagnetic or radio frequency interference or "crosstalk" within your electrical system and wiring. RFI & EMI filters can eliminate any of this interference, while having independent filter banks can eliminate crosstalk between devices that are all plugged into the same filtering device. Most homes have some level of interference in their electrical system, but the severity can vary widely. Items with large motors, like refrigerators, washers & dryers, air conditioning units, and vacuums and hair driers can often dump a bunch of noise and interference into your homes wiring. You might have noticed static or noise in your audio video system when such devices kick in. Or they might cause your lights to dim, which goes back to voltage sags and voltage regulation. So this form of "power conditioning" can be helpful in most homes.

Finally, there are brown outs and black outs. These days, we have a lot of devices that need continuous power. Projectors need cooling fans to protect the lamp. DVRs will lose recordings in progress and menu settings. Videogames in progress need to be saved and shut down properly. Anything with a hard drive could lose data. Anything with a cooling fan could potentially run into an issue with excessive heat build up.

The solution is to have a battery backup uninterruptible power supply. To me, having surge protection and battery backup are the two most critical parts of power protection. And I think everyone should have a good battery backup UPS protecting their DVR, display and any other devices that would benefit from never losing power. Filters are also nice to have, especially if you've ever noticed static or noise in your system.

For all of this, there is no better company than APC. apcav.com lists APC's AV-oriented products. The most cost effective are the J-Type products. The J25B is a particularly great value and widely available. The J35B adds voltage regulation for a higher price tag. The J15BLK is great for when you need more battery protected outlets, but the price is significantly higher.

The J25B really is the best deal and gives you all the most useful protection that most typical home theaters will need at an attractive price. It IS a couple hundred dollars though, and some folks will baulk at that. But when it saves an important DVR recording in progress for you, you quickly realize its value!

Monoprice does sell a battery backup UPS unit for a lower price, but I've never used it myself, so I can't vouch for it. APC is the gold standard for power protection though. I trust them. And I think the J-Type units are worth every penny!

 

[Hookedonc4]

I'm in NJ and no dice... "1. The PSE&G’s standard service supply is alternating current with a nominal frequency of 60 Hertz (cycles
per second).
2. The PSE&G will supply primary service from distribution circuits at nominal 2400/4160 (4 kV) volts or
nominal 7620/13,200 (13 kV) volts, three phase, four wire, WYE. Determination of the supply voltage
shall be made by the PSE&G.
3. The PSE&G will normally supply primary service from voltage regulated circuits. It is impractical to
provide each and every customer on a distribution system with constant utilization voltage
corresponding to the nameplate voltage of his devices. It is the customer’s responsibility to provide and
install equipment which will operate properly within the range of standard voltage being supplied, which
can vary between 107% and 95% of nominal under emergency conditions. The normal expected range is
between 105% and 100%.
4. Protection of electrical equipment against harmonics, loss of voltage, under voltage, transient under
voltage or over voltage, voltage unbalance, phase reversal and short circuit currents is the responsibility
of the customer. This should be considered in the design of the customer's equipment and relaying.
5. It should be noted that short-term low-voltage dips occur on the PSE&G’s system. It is recommended
that time-delay, protective devices be installed on important motors or other critical equipment, but shall
not be installed on the incoming service entrance devices.
6. It is recommended that an uninterruptible power supply or a power conditioner device be installed by the
customer if continuity of service or quality service is required for critical computer or electronic
equipment."

All I know is that I had this protection from the power company during a lighting storm and my neighbor lost a lot of equipment and I lost nothing. It is on my meter and they pay up to $1000 dollars up to 10 lighting strikes 10K if my house gets hit 10 times I am moving...

 

[westom]

I know nothing about highs, lows, and surges... I just know that I have never had an issue with it before, and am wondering if it's just good luck.

Destructive surges occur maybe once every seven years. A frequency that can vary even in the same town. Even affected by geology. Neighborhood history for over a decade is necessary to say more.

A surge is an electric current that seeks earth ground. The solution is simple; costs about $1 per protected appliance. Earth a surge before it enters the building. Then the best protection exists. If that current is inside, then nothing will stop a destructive hunt for earth via appliances. As in nothing.

Many recommend protectors that do not even claim to protect from destrutive surges. Do you really believe its little 2 centimeter part will stop what three miles of sky could not? Do you really believe its hundreds of joules will absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? A protector next to the home theatre must either block a surge or absorb it. The other completely different device, also called a surge protector, connects that energy harmlessly to earth. Is rated to conduct direct lightning strikes to earth - and remain functional.

Facilities that cannot have damage always earth a 'whole house' protector. Because no protector does protection. Because all protection is defined by the single point earth ground. What absorbs energy (hundreds of thousands of joules) without damage.

Connection from any protector to earth must be low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet', wire without sharp bends or splices, etc). No receptacle protector can make a low impedance connection. And will avoid all discussion of earthing to protect an obscene profit margin.

More responsible companies provide a 'whole house' solution including Leviton, General Electric, Square D, Siemens, Ditek, Intermatic, ABB, Polyphaser (Protectiongroup), and so many others. That electric company meter protector is another example. A Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50.

How good is that protection? An IEEE Standard warns that it is not 100%. It is only "99.5% to 99.9% protection". Then the standard says that will increase protection from one stroke in 30 years to one stroke in 6000 years. But that assumes your earth ground both meets and exceeds code requirements.

A Belkin will add maybe 0.2% protection. Only claims to protect from surges made irrelevant by protection already inside all appliances. Has no dedicated wire for the always required short connection to earth. Will not even discuss earth ground. An equivalent product sells in Wal-Mart for $7. How much larger is the Belkin profit margin? Something must pay for all that advertising and hearsay that promotes the Belkin.

The bottom line is this simple. That earth ground (not a protector) should have most of your attention. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

BTW, those other anomalies (brownouts, RFI, etc) are routinely made irrelevant by what already exists inside every appliance. And do no hardware damage. For example, what is normal voltage for any properly designed electronics? Perfectly good voltage is even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Many fear these anomalies only because hearsay invents fears. APC also does not claim to protect from typically harmful surges. Don't take my word for it. Nobody can post a single APC spec that claims that protection for good reason. The manufacturer does not claim that protection. Only subjective claims - hearsay - says it exists.

 

[cgayla]

Assuming that a surge protector is used, is it necessary to have all of the interconnected equipment plugged into the same surge protector? This is my understanding after reading something that was way over my head

 

[westom]

Assuming that a surge protector is used, is it necessary to have all of the interconnected equipment plugged into the same surge protector?

The bottom line is this simple. That earth ground (not a protector) should have most of your attention.

Protection means a surge is earthed (harmlessly absorbed) BEFORE entering a building. A surge that is not inside will not hunt for earth destructively via appliances. Separattion between an appliance and the protector 'increases' protection. If a protector connects a surge low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth, then that surge remains far from the appliance. That is best protection. And how protection is done in any facility that cannot have damage. Protection means a surge stays outside.

Either a surge is inside trying to create damage via appliances. Or the surge never enters, is harmlessly absorbed outside, and causes no damage. That means connecting a surge to earth BEFORE entering a building. Protection is always about where energy dissipates.

 

[Rickster71]

To any newer members in this thread:
There is a good reason why some members have so many negative red chick-lets.

 

[cpp]

Well having a home smack dead in the lightning capital of the world (central Fl), if you have the funds, have the power company come out and audit your ground at the meter and if they offer power surge protection get it. They apply their protection at the entrance to your home. Then have you electrician run a separate power runs with breaker for your equipment. Then add surge protection if it makes you feel better at your wall outlet. Regardless, I had all of this done, and took a hit from mother nature in a tree out side and it fired the power meter, my computer but everything else made it. So the power companies surge protection kept the major current out of the home. The insurance attached to the power companies meter paid for a new computer, but it did cost me $2000 to have the tree cut down and removed.

 

[westom]

There is a good reason why some members have so many negative red chick-lets.

In the 1950s, most everyone knew smoking cigarettes increased health. The few who said otherwise were crackpots. Because advertising proved cigarettes were healthy. A Surgeon General report made those, most easily educated by advertising, angry. He said smoking kills. So he must be wrong. The majority knew otherwise and got angry. The most emotional among us believe the first thing told. Then get angry to avoid a hard reality. They are the most easy to manipulate. And will do almost anything to avoid admtting it.

Most who recommend strip protectors have no idea how it works or what it does. Those easily manipulated by advertising and hearsay will use same emotions to attack the messenger and deny reality. Otherwise they must admit to being so easily decieved. Red shows how many get angry when a power strip protector scam is exposed. After all, those protectors must do what even the manufacturer says it will not do.

Attack the crackpot who learned the science. Who also grew up watching advertising easily manipulate the most emotional into becoming cigarette addicts. Advertising targets the most emotional; people who automatically believe what they were first told. Who even become angry when facts contradict their feelings.

That emotion and resulting anger explains why advertising is so profitable. Honesty does not make one popular among those most easily manipulated by advertising and urban myths.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

In the 1950s, most everyone knew smoking cigarettes increased health. The few who said otherwise were crackpots. Because advertising proved cigarettes were healthy. A Surgeon General report made those, most easily educated by advertising, angry. He said smoking kills. So he must be wrong. The majority knew otherwise and got angry. The most emotional among us believe the first thing told. Then get angry to avoid a hard reality. They are the most easy to manipulate. And will do almost anything to avoid admtting it.

Most who recommend strip protectors have no idea how it works or what it does. Those easily manipulated by advertising and hearsay will use same emotions to attack the messenger and deny reality. Otherwise they must admit to being so easily decieved. Red shows how many get angry when a power strip protector scam is exposed. After all, those protectors must do what even the manufacturer says it will not do.

Attack the crackpot who learned the science. Who also grew up watching advertising easily manipulate the most emotional into becoming cigarette addicts. Advertising targets the most emotional; people who automatically believe what they were first told. Who even become angry when facts contradict their feelings.

That emotion and resulting anger explains why advertising is so profitable. Honesty does not make one popular among those most easily manipulated by advertising and urban myths.

Without cigarettes, I would probably be broke...

 

[Rickster71]

In the 1950s, most everyone knew smoking cigarettes increased health. The few who said otherwise were crackpots. Because advertising proved cigarettes were healthy. A Surgeon General report made those, most easily educated by advertising, angry. He said smoking kills. So he must be wrong. The majority knew otherwise and got angry. The most emotional among us believe the first thing told. Then get angry to avoid a hard reality. They are the most easy to manipulate. And will do almost anything to avoid admtting it.

Most who recommend strip protectors have no idea how it works or what it does. Those easily manipulated by advertising and hearsay will use same emotions to attack the messenger and deny reality. Otherwise they must admit to being so easily decieved. Red shows how many get angry when a power strip protector scam is exposed. After all, those protectors must do what even the manufacturer says it will not do.

Attack the crackpot who learned the science. Who also grew up watching advertising easily manipulate the most emotional into becoming cigarette addicts. Advertising targets the most emotional; people who automatically believe what they were first told. Who even become angry when facts contradict their feelings.

That emotion and resulting anger explains why advertising is so profitable. Honesty does not make one popular among those most easily manipulated by advertising and urban myths.

I don't have a lot of time for this, but here goes.

1. Anyone can look at your old posts and see you have the whole thing Half Right.
You have from day one, only preached grounding...that is, and always will be half the story.
I have repeatedly told you, that you have half a clue.

2. Your post history indicates, only 'grounding' and that surge protection does not work.
After many years of your 'One Trick Pony ' posts, I've told you that power companies have used a combination of both, grounding and surge protection. Then you suddenly spoke of surge protection.

3. You have no, (As in none), understanding of the difference of a direct strike and a surge.

4. You have no understanding (none) of the relationship of surges on power phases, and the fact that they have no connection to ground.

5. Get a Clue.
You're not grounding a cell tower, or the empire state building. It's a home, with a stereo.
If you think for one minute a lighting bolt is going travel miles and that the 1/2" ground rod in someone's home is going to make a bit of difference...I have a bridge to sell you.

6. Please, go bother some other forum. You make my head hurt.

 

[Rickster71]

I wanted to go into a little more detail about surge protection.

The biggest problem is how each situation varies and how unique each home is.

One problem is how the voltage of surges, or the induced voltages from nearby strikes, vary with distance.

Then there is how the ground rod's impedance changes with soil conditions and the quality of its connections.
Too many variables for a perfect home owner solution. The commercial / industrial world has them, though expensive.

I've come to the conclusion that layers of surge protection can't hurt...but, may not help 100%.
Though combining quality surge protection and adding a rider to one's home owners insurance for the replacement value of their HT, along with finding a surge unit that offers insurance.
(read it's fine print)


It's because of the many variables and, frankly, why the insurance is offered with some units.
Don't forget, a direct lightening strike is a whole other animal and all bets are off for the average home owner.

 

[cpp]

At my central Fla home ( which is in the Lightning capital of the whole freaking world) I utilize the meter-base protector plan offered by Progress Energy @ $6.00 per month and also use their surge protection for electronic devices. I can say with fact, my last hit close by took out my computer and with their protection plan they replaced my Apple Mac Pro. All my other devices and appliances made it through. But nothing is going to stop a strong direct hit by mother nature.
https://www.progress-energy.com/florida/home/products-services/surge-protection/index.page