S

sandeep

Enthusiast
<font color='#000000'>I was just browsing Tannoy's website and came across a supertweeter. The site just mentions that SuperTweeter can extend the frequency of existing speakers. Just wondering if any one has more to say about it.

Any ideas on,
How does it work ? How do you connect one to your existing setup ? Do they really increase the clarity in high freqeuncies( if I understand their claim right) ?
It would be interesting &nbsp;to see your comments.
Thanks,
Sandeep</font>
 
S

sandeep

Enthusiast
<font color='#000000'>Well I have to say this......at $2000 a pair of those........why does tannoy think one would not be able to get some decent speakers with good highs.....
I hope this not one of those research products which makes you pay 1000 times more for a 1% increase in performance


Sandeep</font>
 
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A

Audioholic

Enthusiast
<font color='#000000'>Yeah, well I too believe that for 2000$ you could get some very decent speakers, but that super tweeter really does work, but I don’t think it worth it, unless you have 2000$ just lying around with nothing to spend it on…!!!! &nbsp;
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Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
<font color='#000000'>Hmmmm...that gets my BS detectors quivering. Especially at $2k! If your speakers already have good response to the upper limit of audibility (20kHz) -- and any decent speaker already does -- then it's hard to imagine what benefits this would give. Add to that the fact that integrating drivers into a speaker is a far from trivial engineering problem and I think that adding an external driver to a presumably already well-integrated system is problematic at best. Heck, even integrating a sub halfway decently is a tricky business, as attested to by numerous posts here!

If you think your speakers are deficient in some way, the thing to do is replace them, not futz with expensive add-ons, IMHO. If you think they're just fine, then sit back and enjoy! $2k will buy a lot of good disks!</font>
 
A

Audioholic

Enthusiast
<font color='#000000'>Rip Van Woofer I agree 100% with you.
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C

Chuck

Enthusiast
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
Rip Van Woofer : Hmmmm...that gets my BS detectors quivering. Especially at $2k! If your speakers already have good response to the upper limit of audibility (20kHz) -- and any decent speaker already does -- then it's hard to imagine what benefits this would give. Add to that the fact that integrating drivers into a speaker is a far from trivial engineering problem and I think that adding an external driver to a presumably already well-integrated system is problematic at best. Heck, even integrating a sub halfway decently is a tricky business, as attested to by numerous posts here!

If you think your speakers are deficient in some way, the thing to do is replace them, not futz with expensive add-ons, IMHO. If you think they're just fine, then sit back and enjoy! $2k will buy a lot of good disks!
The ESR-6 was a nice add-on tweeter (array) that worked very nicely with speakers like the Large Advent.  Of course the Large Advent had two small cone &quot;mid-tweeters&quot; so there was plenty of room for improvement.  The best modern domes I've tested are almost as good as the best modern ribbons, and the best modern ribbons measure almost as well (and sound as clean and clear) as modern ESL's.  There are still differences, but they've gotten depressingly
small.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that all drivers are equal.  The best spectral decay plots I've ever seen are nearly textbook perfect plots produced using ESL mid-tweeters.


Anechoic, 1/3 octave smoothing.

Next on my list of favored drivers is the pure ribbon, and the good ones produce measurements like the one below:


Measurments made by Orca.

I have yet to see any dome with the flat response and sharp but smooth spectral decay characteristics of a good ribbon, even though I've measured some of the most highly regarded domes available.  Of course I haven't measured them all, so if anyone has better measurements from a dome, I'd be interested, even if no one else cares.  


Having played around a bit with both the ribbons and the ESL's I can say that the differences in the spectral decay, in large untreated rooms, doesn't seem to make a difference that most people notice.  I certainly would not argue that the differences are obvious, or even audible, because doing a DBT with different driver types is just too difficult.  The dispersion differences alone are enough to cloud the issue of what might actually be causing any subtle differences one hears (or thinks they hear).  I do think I hear some of the things that show up in the measurements of even the best domes, but it isn't a given.  Whether I actually hear the differences or not doesn't matter (to me), because I'm happy with getting excellent measurements (and the resulting sound is rewarding, which is really the whole point).  It's about the music, and for most it is probably also about that elusive &quot;point of diminishing returns.&quot;

The point of diminishing returns?  Does that have meaning in the context of something some call &quot;perfectionist audio?&quot;  I really don't know, Rip, but I do know what I like.  My wife’s car will do 0-60 in 6.5 seconds and on a good day it can break into the 14's (just barely), but I find it rather mundane, perhaps even boring.  Knowing what you drive I suspect you'd find it boring too.  
 When it comes to our hobbies, &quot;good enough&quot; usually isn't good enough.  For some it is the same way with audio that it is with automobiles.  I'm not into the audiophile flavor of the month club, but I've enjoyed making progressive measurable improvements in my hobby audio system, and I don't mind paying more for better performance.  Not as long as the improvements are real.  Before I buy any loudspeaker or driver I talk to the manufacturer, and make it clear that I will be measuring the device and that I expect it to meet my expectations.  When they waffle or hesitate I usually look elsewhere.  For the most part this has prevented disappointments.  I've even returned a few products that didn't meet spec and had the manufacturers update the product, and I've never been asked to pay for an upgrade when this has happened.  Actually, I think I'd be pretty angry if I was asked to pay more to make a product I'd purchased meet it's specifications.  My experience is that over the years many small improvements have lead to a system that is very high in resolution and accuracy, and I'm sure I can not match the current performance with modestly priced off the shelf cone and dome loudspeakers.  Heck man, one of my subs measures flat to 14Hz!  I've never seen any COTS loudspeaker of any kind go that deep.  Does it matter?  Well, why do men climb mountains?  


My thing isn't climbing mountains, it's (among other things) fast vehicles and high-performance audio.  I suspect there are a lot more people with an interest (at least a passing interest) in fast cars than extreme audio, but I always figured the two were alike, in that they are both about performance, and the idea of diminishing returns doesn't hold.  When you race a Formula V, you clean it and wax it before every race.  You do dozens of things, none of which make enough difference to bother with, when taken in isolation.  Taken together though, they are all necessary if you want to be in the game.  You ball out the manifold and hand pick valves that are at the limit of spec, and all the do-nothing little differences give you a few more horsepower, and in a class where all the cars are built to the same rules, every little bit counts.  That is why the sport is so much fun.  Everything you do, matters.  Everything from &quot;slow hands&quot; to a smooth waxed surface to &quot;slip through the air&quot; actually matters.  Guys will spend a grand for a new nose design that drops the CD by 0.01, because it does matter, even if it doesn't in and of itself, make a winner.  I believe it is a mistake to see the perfectionist audiophile any differently than we see a guy competing in the SCCA National Runoffs.

The world is full of people who would say your little hot rod was excessive, overkill, or even just plain silly, but for you and guys like me, such things are just plain fun.  Am I wrong to go after audio with the same passion that I go after the autocross trophies?  


See ya,

Chuck</font>
 
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Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
<font color='#000000'>No argument with your broad points, Chuck, although in my hobbies I'm a tad more &quot;laid back&quot; than some. My personality is very &quot;type B&quot;. But still, I am after excellence too -- that's why, barely a month after building some nice speakers with passive crossovers, I'm already dreaming of a version with active crossovers and bi-amping (sh! Don't tell my wife!).

But my point was that adding an external driver to a speaker may cause more problems than it solves, because of the difficulty of sucessfully integrating it with an existing, presumably balanced, system, unless one is willing and able to take on the role of speaker designer. I'm no speaker designer (I just build other people's designs) but I'm thinking of lobing, cancellation, diffraction, and other problems and criteria that need to be solved and met for a truly successful integration. Maybe if the existing system has a fairly orderly high frequency rolloff (one of those &quot;laid back&quot; speakers) it *might* help. Otherwise, I still say that for Joe Audiophile the best solution if one is unhappy with one's present speaker or wants to see what the next step up is, is to get another speaker.

And BTW, the original Large Advent was a two-way &amp; only had one tweeter! You know, that pinkish job with the dome-and-doughnut look on a Masonite mini-baffle. Or was that one just called The Advent Loudspeaker? When I bought mine there was just that one (in plain and &quot;fancy&quot; cabinetry) and the Small Advent.

So...those expensive Ravens really are the cat's PJ's, huh? But how's the off-axis response?</font>
 
A

av_phile

Senior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>The Point of Diminishing Returns in this hobby.  Interesting topic to discuss.  What is the PDR in speakers, amps, players?

For rich people, I guess that doesn't matter.  The pursuit of perfection knows no such thing. Much as I would like to, well, I'm no rich guy,  And I don't know if the pursuit of excellence is the same as the pursuit of perfection.  

I probably would be willing to go 1 or 2 steps beyond this PDR.  But knowing that going any farther would cost more with little benefits, I have to learn where to stop.  I mean going from Wharfedale Daimonds to Mordaunt-Short Decalration speakers can be exhilirating, the price is only twiice the other.  But going from MS to B&amp;W Nautilus, I am not sure  if the sonic improvement is commensurate to the 100 times increase in price.  Educate me.</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>&quot;But my point was that adding an external driver to a speaker may cause more problems than it solves, because of the difficulty of sucessfully integrating it with an existing, presumably balanced, system, unless one is willing and able to take on the role of speaker designer.&quot;

Nice point!

Sure the &quot;super tweeter&quot; may have excellent response, but what about its integration with the rest of the drivers?

Do these &quot;super tweeters&quot; have better (flatter) responses within the audio bands we can actually hear because of their ability to reach 100khz, or for some other reason(s)???</font>
 
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