Subwoofer Questions

[Pedantic]

My wife and I recently decided to add a subwoofer to our to current setup (Harmon Kardon AVR 247, Klipsch RF-62 and corresponding center channel.) By default we started looking at Klipsch subs. We added the R-10SWi. The room is about 15 x 30. Following the advice found in this forum and others, we found the the spot which offered the best sound and adjusted the gain and avr speaker and crossover settings to best blend the sub with the rest of the system.

Anyhow, it sounds fine with movies. When it comes to music, however, it sounds muddy or sloppy - something like that. I certainly don't have the tools to quantify what I'm hearing but I think music is better served with the subwoofer turned off.

This may be symptomatic of the price range (~$250). I have a JBL Studio 550p on the way as a comparison/remedy.

I'm hoping to get some direction/recommendation on possible solutions. There's not much room for adjusting our budget because, well...life. I'm competent woodworker so building something is definitely an option.

Thanks for all the information in these threads. And, thanks in advance for your replies. I appreciate the assistance.

 

[shadyJ]

It would help to see a frequency response of its behavior. Without measurements, you can only guess at what is occurring. You might look at getting a USB calibration microphone to see what is happening. That will help you find out the best placement.

My guess is your sub is placed in a spot that is creating a peak in the frequency response. It may be fixable by moving it to a location that creates more even bass, but you have to measure the responses to see where that is.

 

[Pedantic]

It would help to see a frequency response of its behavior. Without measurements, you can only guess at what is occurring. You might look at getting a USB calibration microphone to see what is happening. That will help you find out the best placement.

My guess is your sub is placed in a spot that is creating a peak in the frequency response. It may be fixable by moving it to a location that creates more even bass, but you have to measure the responses to see where that is.

Thanks for the quick reply. It looks like there are apps I can do this with. We'll see how technologically inept I actually am.

 

[Pedantic]

I moved the sub around the room again and ended up in more-or-less the same spot as before. The bass on pretty much any rock music sounds pretty sloppy. It really muddies the low end.

Any recommendations for an Android app to use for measuring frequency response?

 

[ATLAudio]

Does that HK have any sort of RC tool? May or may not help...

 

[lovinthehd]

Phone mics are hit and miss IMO. If you really want to measure a sub you need a decent measurement mic and appropriate software. Curious, what does that avr do to help incorporate a sub?

 

[Pedantic]

Thanks for the replies.

ATLAudio - It looks like we have the same towers. Do you have a sub in your setup?

lovinthehd - Understood on the importance of decent measurement tools. The avr has a sub out. Other than that, I have speaker size set to small and crossover at 80 Hz.

 

[Foxrox]

You’re open to building one? There are many in-depth reviews of DIY subs (and other subs) here:

http://data-bass.com/systems

 

[Pedantic]

You’re open to building one? There are many in-depth reviews of DIY subs (and other subs) here:

http://data-bass.com/systems

I'm more than happy to build one, especially if it allows me to maximize my budget. I have ton of 3/4 MDF laying around. Thanks for that link.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for the replies.

ATLAudio - It looks like we have the same towers. Do you have a sub in your setup?

lovinthehd - Understood on the importance of decent measurement tools. The avr has a sub out. Other than that, I have speaker size set to small and crossover at 80 Hz.

I'm still curious other than sub out/crossover what the avr has....no auto setup/room eq function using a mic to set delay (distance) as well as level for the sub/speakers? How about a manual delay/distance adjustment?

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm more than happy to build one, especially if it allows me to maximize my budget. I have ton of 3/4 MDF laying around. Thanks for that link.

DIY is a great way to go, altho a single sub isn't usually nearly as cost effective as a pair with a single amp to drive them. Curious, why do you have so much mdf?

 

[Pedantic]

I'm still curious other than sub out/crossover what the avr has....no auto setup/room eq function using a mic to set delay (distance) as well as level for the sub/speakers? How about a manual delay/distance adjustment?

Ah, Yup. Auto setup w/ microphone and manual setup is available. I manually adjusted the distances, delay and crossover as the auto setup will only work for a 5.1 surround system. It forces manual setup for anything less.

 

[Pedantic]

DIY is a great way to go, altho a single sub isn't usually nearly as cost effective as a pair with a single amp to drive them. Curious, why do you have so much mdf?

I just finished a remodel on our house as well as building some radiator covers. It's so much cheaper than plywood when appropriate.
The DIY route is also appealing in that it I could get creative with the design and hide the sub.

I noticed your in Oakridge. Do you Mountain bike by chance? The trails there are so good!

 

[mtrycrafts]

Welcome to AH.

You say the sub doesn't sound right with music.
What is the source of music? Stereo or multi channel source? How do you know the music should have powerful lows as I think you are after what you hear in movies.
Do you by chance have the Telarc 1812 CD? It has powerful period cannon recording on it but you need to set your system up so a stereo signal will send the lows to the sub as well. It doesn't on its own.
My Onkyo has what is called "double bass" that sends the lows to the sub from a 2ch source.

 

[Pedantic]

Welcome to AH.

You say the sub doesn't sound right with music.
What is the source of music? Stereo or multi channel source? How do you know the music should have powerful lows as I think you are after what you hear in movies.
Do you by chance have the Telarc 1812 CD? It has powerful period cannon recording on it but you need to set your system up so a stereo signal will send the lows to the sub as well. It doesn't on its own.
My Onkyo has what is called "double bass" that sends the lows to the sub from a 2ch source.

Thanks for the welcome. I've enjoyed lurking for awhile.
As far as music goes, we listen to a pretty eclectic mix ranging from primarily classic rock to classical. I feel like the bass the sub contributes is disproportionately noticeable, thumping, and kind of muddled. Basically, it seems sloppy. The gain is turned down to about 1/4.

I don't have the CD you referenced. As for source, I've listened using a generic Samsung Blu-ray player and streaming through a Roku and Chromecast. I'll explore the additional settings as far as stereo vs multichannel go.
As you can probably tell, I'm just wading into this stuff. Most of our setup was a gift from a friend that moved out of the country.

 

[lovinthehd]

I just finished a remodel on our house as well as building some radiator covers. It's so much cheaper than plywood when appropriate.
The DIY route is also appealing in that it I could get creative with the design and hide the sub.

I noticed your in Oakridge. Do you Mountain bike by chance? The trails there are so good!

Thanks. Haven't tried the remodel thing but will keep that in mind. Definitely a plus of diy is you can get higher waf with a nice end table or chest design or something....

Yep, why I moved here, that's my primary addiction . Where are you? Let me know if you come out riding! Here's my main ride these days:

Ah, Yup. Auto setup w/ microphone and manual setup is available. I manually adjusted the distances, delay and crossover as the auto setup will only work for a 5.1 surround system. It forces manual setup for anything less.

Too bad on the auto thing, its usually pretty handy for the setting of level/delay, particularly for the sub. How did you level match?

Might want to play with delay a bit, actual distance isn't necessarily correct due the additional delay inherent in a sub...might try playing with that a bit to make sure it's dialed in. Here's the part from the AH article on sub integration as regards distance:

Seriously, how important can this be? You let auto-calibration take care of this for you, or if you’re feeling particularly hands on, you might whip out the tape measure, right? A word of wisdom: don’t underestimate the power of the distance setting in your A/V receiver. Obviously the primary job of the distance setting is setting a delay relative to your other speakers. Note, the distance reported by your receiver’s auto-calibration will be inclusive of any delay caused by signal processing happening inside the subwoofer (EQ, low pass filtering, etc.), which can add several feet to the distance per your tape measure. Above and beyond this, the distance adjustment functions as a phase control of sorts. Adding or subtracting a couple feet from the distance of your subwoofer is a viable way of getting rid of an ugly peak or dip around the crossover point. Again, to make the most out of this tool, one does need the ability to take measurements. Still, who would have ever thought such an innocuous setting could have that kind of power?

 

[Pedantic]

Thanks. Haven't tried the remodel thing but will keep that in mind. Definitely a plus of diy is you can get higher waf with a nice end table or chest design or something....

Yep, why I moved here, that's my primary addiction . Where are you? Let me know if you come out riding! Here's my main ride these days:
View attachment 23465


Too bad on the auto thing, its usually pretty handy for the setting of level/delay, particularly for the sub. How did you level match?

Might want to play with delay a bit, actual distance isn't necessarily correct due the additional delay inherent in a sub...might try playing with that a bit to make sure it's dialed in. Here's the part from the AH article on sub integration as regards distance:

Seriously, how important can this be? You let auto-calibration take care of this for you, or if you’re feeling particularly hands on, you might whip out the tape measure, right? A word of wisdom: don’t underestimate the power of the distance setting in your A/V receiver. Obviously the primary job of the distance setting is setting a delay relative to your other speakers. Note, the distance reported by your receiver’s auto-calibration will be inclusive of any delay caused by signal processing happening inside the subwoofer (EQ, low pass filtering, etc.), which can add several feet to the distance per your tape measure. Above and beyond this, the distance adjustment functions as a phase control of sorts. Adding or subtracting a couple feet from the distance of your subwoofer is a viable way of getting rid of an ugly peak or dip around the crossover point. Again, to make the most out of this tool, one does need the ability to take measurements. Still, who would have ever thought such an innocuous setting could have that kind of power?

Thanks for the article. I'll try that out. Makes sense.

Yeah, I mountain biking eats up most of the slush fund. We moved to Cleveland, OH while my wife finishes her medical training. We were Idyllwild, CA before that. Such good riding there as well. Some close friends of ours have a farm in Corvallis. We're up there somewhat frequently. I'll definitely hit you up.

Love that Santa Cruz. I'm in a chromag rootdown presently

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for the article. I'll try that out. Makes sense.

Yeah, I mountain biking eats up most of the slush fund. We moved to Cleveland, OH while my wife finishes her medical training. We were Idyllwild, CA before that. Such good riding there as well. Some close friends of ours have a farm in Corvallis. We're up there somewhat frequently. I'll definitely hit you up.

Love that Santa Cruz. I'm in a chromag rootdown presently

I've ridden in Idyllwild just once...but have ridden around socal some, mostly norcal where I used to live. Definitely hit me up if you get out here. That Rootdown would work fine around here

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
As far as music goes, we listen to a pretty eclectic mix ranging from primarily classic rock to classical. I feel like the bass the sub contributes is disproportionately noticeable, thumping, and kind of muddled. Basically, it seems sloppy. The gain is turned down to about 1/4.

I don't have the CD you referenced. As for source, I've listened using a generic Samsung Blu-ray player and streaming through a Roku and Chromecast. I'll explore the additional settings as far as stereo vs multichannel go.
As you can probably tell, I'm just wading into this stuff. Most of our setup was a gift from a friend that moved out of the country.

Apparently you don't have similar issues when watching a BD movie? That is curious if the case.
Booming, perhaps thumping comes from room modes at certain frequencies. This might need relocating the sub or EQ those frequencies.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I think if you can diy something, that could be great. There are plenty of ID companies that build great subs, and most would be better than a 10” klipsch, and offer better value. Linearity is not something they’re known for. I would definitely look at replacing it. Either ID or diy.