Subwoofer Placement

[Pogre]

what a pain in the ass. I'm happy with my mains, center and surround placement, but getting the subs right isn't easy. I'm discovering my room might be an acoustical nightmare.

first off, I know I could do better for subs. they're klipsch rpw 10's, but I got the pair for 400 bucks. they don't sound horrible and they'll hold me over until I run into that little ol' lady from Pasadena who's selling a set of monsters in a garage sale or something.

my listening area is about 15 x 15', sitting about 14' from the tv/front speakers. this opens up into the kitchen/dining room area behind me which adds an additional 20' in length to the overall size of the room, making it 35 x 15'. it also opens up into a den on the right side of the listening area through an open arch. the den is 10 x 12'. add to that, vaulted ceilings. 12' at the peak.

originally I had my sm55's on short stands right on top of the subs. while i liked it aesthetically, it was lacking in bass. especially at lower listening levels. and there were definitely dead zones and spots where it was much stronger throughout the listening area. I moved the right sub just inside the archway in the den that opens up on the right side of my listening area. what a difference! it greatly improved the bass throughout the room. I ran audysee again and it turned my subs down to -5, and it sounds great. even at lower listening levels.

my problem is, it now looks stupid with one speaker sitting on a sub and the other jimmied up on a crate with floor tiles under it to match height with the other front. plus having a sub sitting right in the archway to the den isn't exactly the best spot. my wife is pretty forgiving, but even I have to agree we gotta figger something else out.

I'm gonna build a set of stands for both fronts so they can stand alone and give me some more flexibility on sub placement. I don't know if you guys can help much with the info given, I know furniture placement, etc are a factor also. I've read about the sub crawl, but don't have a cord long enough to put one in my listening position, and does it work with 2 subs?

oh, I also have carpeted floors. any help is appreciated. thanks!

 

[j_garcia]

Sub crawl still works for two because the spot you find for one is the same good spot for both. Try stacking the two in various corners and see how they sound too. You usually want them either co-located or in opposite orientations for smoothing.

 

[Pogre]

I never thought of stacking them. huh. they're ported in the front via a slot across the bottom the width of the speaker, so I suppose that wouldn't pose any problems. would there be any gains by having one of the subs stacked higher? I'm officially intrigued.

I would like to get them opposite each other, but furniture configuration is pretty much locked in and makes it impractical. I have the perfect corner, but I've read that corner loading can make it boomy?

I'm listening to probably 40% music and 60% tv/movies. I like strong bass, but blended well and not imposing or boomy. I have my mains set to small and crossed over at 60hz as per deftech, and the subs are at 80hz. my receiver won't go lower than that for bass management, though I could turn the crossover up in the receiver and use the sub crossover for a lower point?

*edit:
just absorbed the opposite orientation part of your post. you mean if stack I should configure them basically like bipole?

 

[j_garcia]

Stacked means they interact less, but if you're looking to smooth, they will behave more like one sub when stacked. Yes, boominess may be the issue, so you'll have to experiment with the corners and that's where the crawl might help if you don't have a meter to measure. If you have an AVR with sub EQ you should be fine though.

No, opposite ends of the room - to offset room modes. Bipole wouldn't apply to subs so much because of the frequencies involved. It would be audible higher up, but not in the lower range. You'd want them facing the same way, usually toward the longest leg of the room.

 

[Pogre]

gotcha. I'm gonna get my stands built today. I'll have some more room to play when they're done. thanks for the tips..

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

Irregular rooms like yours can be great for subs, as they can deliver even levels over a broad area for seating that’s not up against a room boundary. I’ve lived in two places with listening rooms similar to what you describe – open to other areas with cathedral ceilings – and I’ve always got the best results with the subs in a corner, with parametric EQ applied to smooth out the main peaks in response. I'd strongly suggest utilizing a room measurement program like Room EQ Wizard to know what exactly is happening.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Pogre]

Irregular rooms like yours can be great for subs, as they can deliver even levels over a broad area for seating that’s not up against a room boundary. I’ve lived in two places with listening rooms similar to what you describe – open to other areas with cathedral ceilings – and I’ve always got the best results with the subs in a corner, with parametric EQ applied to smooth out the main peaks in response. I'd strongly suggest utilizing a room measurement program like Room EQ Wizard to know what exactly is happening.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

I have a Denon avr, so I use audyssey to give me a baseline, then tweak it from there. I don't know how it measures up against room wizard.

got my stands done. they still need stained black, but it's been raining all day and would take forever to dry. besides... I couldn't wait to see how they looked set up in my living room! I attached a pic.

I took the pedestals from smaller, lighter stands and cut some 4 x 6 posts to height. they're 28 1/2 inches tall and they weigh about 35 - 40 lbs each. if the dog runs into one she might crack a rib. lol. they're definitely solid. I'm gonna get a longer rca for the other sub and see if it'll work in the corner or at the end of the couch, almost opposite the other one.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

Wow, nice stands! I actually like them the way they are. The combination of wood and black makes a great contrast. Two 4” x 6” posts? Simple, but what a great concept!

Remember, the further away a sub is from a corner, and especially a room boundary, the less output and extension it will have.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Pogre]

thanks man. it was hot and muggy in the garage this afternoon. I kinda like the way they look right now too. I spent less than 20 bucks on the lumber and got some pretty decent stands.

I'm just gonna play around with the subs. I'll start in the corner and if it gets too boomy I'll start sliding it out until I find a balance. hell, I might figger out a way to get them opposite each other. thanks for the replies guys. much appreciated.

 

[herbu]

I might figger out a way to get them opposite each other

Keep in mind they don't have to be "opposite". My room is like yours. I have one sub in a front corner and another kinda center of the back wall. Sounds great.

Also decide what you're trying to do. Do you really need absolute balance in every seating position? Or is balance in 2-3 primary positions and a slight peak or null in other positions enough? Are the people who may sit in those odd positions audiophiles enough to even notice?

Most of us are limited by furniture and room shape. But I believe you can likely get acceptable balance at your primary positions working within your room constraints.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

As for sub crawl find 2 spots that sound the best for you and try setting your subs on those 2 spots.

 

[Pogre]

sub crawl works. I did like you said, crawled around until I found 2 good spots (dog thought i was playing... it was kinda fun). as chance would have it, I had them pretty close already. I got the one in the archway out of the way a little better, though not quite as strong, moving the one on the left side of the room a little closer to the corner and running audyssey again kinda made up for it.

I think the only way I could do any better would be with more subs or better subs. I'll definitely hold out and get some better subs before I'd add any more. thanks again for the suggestions guys. in the end, good ol' sub crawl and a touch of corner loading did the trick. I'm pretty satisfied with my system now.

 

[Pogre]

got 'em stained so I figured I'd post some updated pics. very happy how they turned out. with the speakers on them they're pretty heavy and hard to tip. awesomesauce.

 

[MR.MAGOO]

using DefTech SM55 as subwoofer?

 

[Pogre]

lol. no. I have 2 Klipsch rpw 10's. I built the stands because I had the monitors on top of the subs on shorter stands and needed more flexibility on sub placement. didn't like the bass I was getting and didn't wanna drop a hundo on new stands.

 

[Pogre]

I think the only way I could do any better would be with more subs or better subs. I'll definitely hold out and get some better subs before I'd add any more.

always looking out for a deal. I see svs and hsu suggested a lot. opinions on these?

clicky
clicky
clicky

 

[KenM10759]

Save up and get something far newer and more substantial?

None of those is going to wow you to any great extent over the two Klipsch you already have.

 

[Pogre]

I kinda figured. looks like unless I'm extremely lucky I'm not gonna get anything significantly better by budget buying. gonna be a tough sell for she who keeps my spending in check...

I'd really like to get two 12" subs. would one good 12" sub (to start, hsu or svs for example) outperform the two 10" I have?

I ask because I could sell what I have to generate some more funds for a newer purchase, but then I'd be committed.

 

[Pogre]

what the...? <--- click

 

[KenM10759]

LOL...I can just imagine many a person (sober or otherwise) choosing a seat...a costly one.