Subwoofer Dilemma

[slipperybidness]

Well, I just can't make up my mind, I have quite the choice on my hands. I could probably use some help in deciding on sealed vs. ported.

Here is the rundown. I have 2 setups. Living room is the HT area and main listening rig. Running Goldenear Triton 2 Towers full range with the built in subs. Sounds excellent for music, would like more "punch" for movies. I have a large room with open floorplan. I have these supplemented with a Velodyne VX-10 sub, definitely the weak link in this system.

My other rig is in a much smaller room, Infinity P362 towers being run full range, no sub.

I am ready to step up to a big-boy sub Can't decide what to do, so let's get some opinions flowing and I will throw out some of my ideas. Unfortunately, I am very limited in the sub size and placement options in the living room, but am unrestricted in the 2nd system. I want to spend wisely and be sure I will appreciate the new sub for years to come. My MAX budget would have to be $2K, but the less the better, of course.

1) Go with the PC13 Ultra for the living room and move the VX10 to the 2nd system. I think I can fit the PC13 b/w my tower and TV, but may be a tight fit. Not sure if it would play nice with the radiator of the GE tower being fairly close.

2) Go with the PB12-NSD for the living room and move the VX10 to 2nd system. That should fit in the spot nicely.

3) Go with 2 (dual) sb12-nsd. Then decide if I want 2 in the living room and move VX10 to the 2nd system, or have 1 in living room and 1 in 2nd system.

4) Go with the SB13 ultra for living room. I'm just not sure that it is worth the money over the dual SB12s.

5) Get the PB13 Ultra and put it in my 2nd system (with the idea that it would go into primary system if I ever buy a new house).

6) Get the Funk 18.0 passive and run it off a crown amp, for my 2nd system (can't fit amp in living room). With the idea to move it to primary system if I ever have the room for it.

Any other ideas or comments?

 

[Archaea]

I owned a pair of SVS PB13 Ultras. The 750 watt bash amp models, not the newer models.

At that price point you are getting dangerously close to some subs that can outperform the 13" ultra driver in a pretty major way. For $2500 there are some serious competitors. JTR Captivator, or Seaton Submersive. The PB13 Ultra is no dolt, but dual 15" drivers powered by 2400 watts, or a high excursion, high efficiency 18" driver powered by 2400 watts is a significant upgrade for $500 more in my experienced opinion (I've attended a half dozen audio meet g2g's at this point and hosted 2 subwoofer g2gs). I've heard the Seaton Submersive HPs singles or in pairs over a dozen times in various rooms, including my own. I've even heard five in the same room. I now own a pair of JTR Captivators. In my experience it's at least worth looking into those alternatives. Rythmik Audio with their FV15HP might also be an alternative to consider. Funky Waves also makes some great stuff by all accounts. I think SVS has lost a bit of it's bang for buck value - though they still make great quality, bullet proof products. I do think in my experience that the plus is probably close to 90% of the Ultra performance --- so you could consider saving some cost there as an option.


Option 18.0 passive might be fun, but you'll definitely need some EQ gear to get a flat FR in room. MiniDSP or equivalent.

 

[Steve81]

I think SVS has lost a bit of it's bang for buck value - though they still make great quality, bullet proof products.

They certainly aren't the most SPL per $, but there are other things that bring value besides sheer output. The 5 year total warranty, second to none customer service, and comprehensive measurements of most of their subwoofers are huge value adds IMO. YMMV.

As for the dilemma, if you're trying to add punch to movies in a large room, a large ported sub would seem to make the most sense in my book.

As far as placement, have you considered wireless?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Unfortunately, I am very limited in the sub size and placement options in the living room, but am unrestricted in the 2nd system.

Which system do you really want this sub for? How limited is "limited"? How much SPL will you really use? A lot of folks talk about subs the way kids used to bench race muscle cars and brag about horsepower, but you then you find that they never really ask for more than 90db at 25Hz.

You didn't mention room sizes either.

 

[slipperybidness]

I owned a pair of SVS PB13 Ultras. The 750 watt bash amp models, not the newer models.

At that price point you are getting dangerously close to some subs that can outperform the 13" ultra driver in a pretty major way. For $2500 there are some serious competitors. JTR Captivator, or Seaton Submersive. The PB13 Ultra is no dolt, but dual 15" drivers powered by 2400 watts, or a high excursion, high efficiency 18" driver powered by 2400 watts is a significant upgrade for $500 more in my experienced opinion (I've attended a half dozen audio meet g2g's at this point and hosted 2 subwoofer g2gs). I've heard the Seaton Submersive HPs singles or in pairs over a dozen times in various rooms, including my own. I've even heard five in the same room. I now own a pair of JTR Captivators. In my experience it's at least worth looking into those alternatives. Rythmik Audio with their FV15HP might also be an alternative to consider. Funky Waves also makes some great stuff by all accounts. I think SVS has lost a bit of it's bang for buck value - though they still make great quality, bullet proof products. I do think in my experience that the plus is probably close to 90% of the Ultra performance --- so you could consider saving some cost there as an option.


Option 18.0 passive might be fun, but you'll definitely need some EQ gear to get a flat FR in room. MiniDSP or equivalent.

Honestly, $2K is pushing my budget already. I just can't see paying more than that right now, not that $2.5K wouldn't be worth it, but I do have other hobbies and obligations. And, back to the size issue, not sure I can squeeze a 15 in the living room. Yeah, I've looked at FV15HP, like what I see, but won't fit in my space in living room.

What is your opinion on the PB12 NSD?

 

[slipperybidness]

They certainly aren't the most SPL per $, but there are other things that bring value besides sheer output. The 5 year total warranty, second to none customer service, and comprehensive measurements of most of their subwoofers are huge value adds IMO. YMMV.

As for the dilemma, if you're trying to add punch to movies in a large room, a large ported sub would seem to make the most sense in my book.

As far as placement, have you considered wireless?

Yup, I have considered wireless, I know there are a couple good universal kits on the market that would work. But, even with wireless, I just don't have a good place for it. If i were a single man, not a problem. GAF gonna have to come into play for the living room

 

[slipperybidness]

Which system do you really want this sub for? How limited is "limited"? How much SPL will you really use? A lot of folks talk about subs the way kids used to bench race muscle cars and brag about horsepower, but you then you find that they never really ask for more than 90db at 25Hz.

You didn't mention room sizes either.

Really, I want the punch in the living room, where I watch movies. So, I guess that points me in the right direction.

Limited, as in 1 place. B/W the left tower and the TV stand. About 18"Wide x 21"High x 21" deep. Maybe slightly larger but not by much. Really, that is all I have to work with. What is the best sub with those dimensions?

Room size is about 20'x30'x10'. Ceiling is vaulted over half of the area, the area over the HT listening position.

Yup, good point on real-world SPL. I definitely want more than I have now.

 

[Steve81]

About 18"Wide x 21"High x 21" deep. Maybe slightly larger but not by much. Really, that is all I have to work with. What is the best sub with those dimensions?

Room size is about 20'x30'x10'. Ceiling is vaulted over half of the area, the area over the HT listening position.

With that restriction on dimensions, I'd probably opt for the the SVS SB13, Hsu ULS-15, or Rythmik F15HP. You'll likely end up sacrificing a little output around the tuning point of the PB12-NSD, but you'll gain a lot more output from about 40Hz on up.

Regarding the PB12-NSD, IME with the PC12-NSD in a 2500 cubic foot room, it delivered good quality and quantity of output. Still, as I pushed the volume up towards -10dB from reference, there was no question thanks to the limiter light flashing that I would benefit from a more powerful sub. In a larger room, you'll likely run into those limits earlier, and if that light bugs you like it did me...you'll be eyeing Ultras, Captivators, and Submersives before long

 

[slipperybidness]

With that restriction on dimensions, I'd probably opt for the the SVS SB13, Hsu ULS-15, or Rythmik F15HP. You'll likely end up sacrificing a little output around the tuning point of the PB12-NSD, but you'll gain a lot more output from about 40Hz on up.

Regarding the PB12-NSD, IME with the PC12-NSD in a 2500 cubic foot room, it delivered good quality and quantity of output. Still, as I pushed the volume up towards -10dB from reference, there was no question thanks to the limiter light flashing that I would benefit from a more powerful sub. In a larger room, you'll likely run into those limits earlier, and if that light bugs you like it did me...you'll be eyeing Ultras, Captivators, and Submersives before long

Yeah, I understand wanting more, but I am currently limited. Let me throw this out there too
GoldenEar Technology TritonCinema Two HT Labs Measures | Home Theater

I know a lot of y'all have more experience reading this than me. It seems to me that the Goldenears have an honest 50Hz response and HT calls the -3dB 44Hz. That being said, I need a sub that will hit the lowest of the lows, not worried about the upper bass region b/c the Tritons have that covered.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but needing only the low, low end, does that mean that my best bet is going with a ported design? The SVS "merlin" program recs the PB or PC13 ultra to pair with these.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Really, I want the punch in the living room, where I watch movies. So, I guess that points me in the right direction.

Limited, as in 1 place. B/W the left tower and the TV stand. About 18"Wide x 21"High x 21" deep. Maybe slightly larger but not by much. Really, that is all I have to work with. What is the best sub with those dimensions?

Room size is about 20'x30'x10'. Ceiling is vaulted over half of the area, the area over the HT listening position.

Yup, good point on real-world SPL. I definitely want more than I have now.

That's a big room, and that sub space isn't big enough for a huge ported sub. The Funk 18.0 is your best bet, IMO, but it's roughly a 22" cube. Is that 18" width a hard limit?

The sub that fits best in that space with the most output seems to be a Velodyne DD15+, but the cheapest price for a new one on the internet is $3K. I've seen used ones go for $2000-2200. Maybe Gene will sell you one of his cheap.

 

[slipperybidness]

That's a big room, and that sub space isn't big enough for a huge ported sub. The Funk 18.0 is your best bet, IMO, but it's roughly a 22" cube. Is that 18" width a hard limit?

The sub that fits best in that space with the most output seems to be a Velodyne DD15+, but the cheapest price for a new one on the internet is $3K. I've seen used ones go for $2000-2200. Maybe Gene will sell you one of his cheap.

No, I could probably squeeze 20 inches out of it. But, with the Funk, I would want to go the passive route, and no room for the extra amp in the living room. The powered Funk is out of budget for now

 

[slipperybidness]

Just re-measured. Yeah, those original measurements are just about spot-on. Could maybe squeeze an extra inch in each direction. I don't think the cylinders would quite fit either. I suppose if I had one delivered I could "make it fit"

How about the dual SB12 NSD option, I could definitely get that to work. Guess I should mention, with the duals, I have an open spot b/w the right tower and the audio rack that is about the same size as the other spot.

Or the SB15 would work. Or the PB12NSD, but that is starting to push it.

 

[Adam]

Regarding the SB13-Ultra versus the PC13-Ultra, I compared the two in my review and gave my opinion of them (and, yeah, I know that you already voted ). If you have any questions, just let me know.

I can't compare those two against any of the other subs mentioned here, but in my room, both of them met my desires for low-end bass.

In regards to getting a Plus versus an Ultra, IMO it partially comes down to this - if you get a Plus, will you wonder later if you should have gotten the Ultra? If not, then the Plus might be good. Five years ago, I knew deep down that a Plus was probably good enough, but I also knew that I'd always wonder if I should have gotten the Ultra. So, I got the Ultra. I have never once regretted it. Not once.

 

[slipperybidness]

Regarding the SB13-Ultra versus the PC13-Ultra, I compared the two in my review and gave my opinion of them (and, yeah, I know that you already voted ). If you have any questions, just let me know.

I can't compare those two against any of the other subs mentioned here, but in my room, both of them met my desires for low-end bass.

In regards to getting a Plus versus an Ultra, IMO it partially comes down to this - if you get a Plus, will you wonder later if you should have gotten the Ultra? If not, then the Plus might be good. Five years ago, I knew deep down that a Plus was probably good enough, but I also knew that I'd always wonder if I should have gotten the Ultra. So, I got the Ultra. I have never once regretted it. Not once.

I agree completely. The ultra is in my budget, but only the SB will fit in my size constraint. I read the reviews and I saw your comment on how it compared to the PB, and that does lean me to the SB13 ultra. By the way, good review, I just think that you had some stiff competition with PBC and I enjoyed his links and background on SVS. Even though it is all readily available, I thought that was the icing on the cake to give him the edge.

Also, I really respect that comment about the only thing worse than losing a rigged fight is winning a rigged fight, and I almost gave you the vote just for your honesty!

On the other hand, the PB12 is about 1/2 the price of the SB13. Decisions, decisions. I'm 100% sure that whatever I get will be a huge improvement over the VX10 that is in there now. If I go the "cheap-skate" route, then I know that at a later time, it will get moved to my 2nd system when I go for something awesome.

My girlfriend caught me making some measurements and didn't look too enthused by the situation. I told her I was looking at making some "improvements" and may be adding another black box to the decor.

 

[Lordhumungus]

My girlfriend caught me making some measurements and didn't look too enthused by the situation.

Story of my life....

In all seriousness though, have you considered the fact that the Funk subwoofer has rounded edges that taper as it goes toward the back? Given the space you have to work with it may actually fit if the front sticks out a little bit. It would essentially be wedged in. It's 22" deep anyway so that plus room for cables would make the front part which is wider stick out even further. Not necessarily the most elegant solution, but if it's only 2" overlapping on either side it may not actually look too bad.

 

[Steve81]

It seems to me that the Goldenears have an honest 50Hz response and HT calls the -3dB 44Hz. That being said, I need a sub that will hit the lowest of the lows, not worried about the upper bass region b/c the Tritons have that covered.

I would still wager (as the user reviews seem to corroborate) that the SB13 would feel more powerful for the vast majority of the time for the simple reason that there are very few scenes in any movie that are centered in the band where the PB12-NSD has the advantage (20-25Hz). Simply put, there's a lot more going on in most soundtracks at 40Hz than 20Hz.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

My girlfriend caught me making some measurements and didn't look too enthused by the situation.

Let's face it, this is not the worst thing you've caught me doing.

 

[Steve81]

Let's face it, this is not the worst thing you've caught me doing.

Well that entirely depends on what he was taking measurements of

 

[Adam]

Let's face it, this is not the worst thing you've caught me doing.

 

[Matt34]

If you can do 18"w in-between the speakers and tv stand I would get a pair of these for about $1500.

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