Sterophonic bass / Parham flanking sub approach from Aventage AVR possible?

[j0nnyfive]

Hello! This is my first time posting here. Great site and resource! I have a question about stereophonic bass (i.e. "truly full range" stereo), and how to achieve this without requiring purchase of external amplification for my main speakers.

Is it possible to connect my main L/R front speakers to the speaker outs of an AVR, and simultaneously connect a subwoofer to each of the L/R front speaker PRE-OUTs of the receiver, so that the pre-out signal may be low passed via EQ (such as MiniDSP) before being output by the subwoofers?

The Yamaha Aventage 3060 manual says not to do this, but it is not clear as to why not. I don't know if it's a technical (damage) reason, or if it's simply to prevent newbies from making "wrong" connections. I do not know. I called Yamaha and the support guy could not give a definitive answer (he is now curious, also).

My speakers are the Pi Speakers 4 Pi (stereo pair), and I plan on getting 2 Rythmik FV15HP subs, and I would like to at least have the option of setting them up ala Parham's "flanking sub" method. I may or may not like this setup, but I would like to have the freedom to do this when I get the itch. Thanks!

P.S. Audioholic's president, Gene, commented in one of the Youtube videos that he was currently running a setup that, to me, sounds similar to this, but did not say how he accomplished it. (to my knowledge) Thanks!

 

[lovinthehd]

The basic reason would be duplication of frequency range. The minidsp can adjust low pass for the subs from the main pre-outs but what about a high pass filter for the mains? Just how much stereo bass is there in typical recordings in the first place, though? Not familiar with the flanking thing but if that means putting the subs next to the mains that may not be the best position for the subs at all.

ps Should have added that you may as well simply connect the subs through the high level inputs, skip the minidsp and simply use the low pass filter on the subs.

 

[slipperybidness]

Hello! This is my first time posting here. Great site and resource! I have a question about stereophonic bass (i.e. "truly full range" stereo), and how to achieve this without requiring purchase of external amplification for my main speakers.

Is it possible to connect my main L/R front speakers to the speaker outs of an AVR, and simultaneously connect a subwoofer to each of the L/R front speaker PRE-OUTs of the receiver, so that the pre-out signal may be low passed via EQ (such as MiniDSP) before being output by the subwoofers?

The Yamaha Aventage 3060 manual says not to do this, but it is not clear as to why not. I don't know if it's a technical (damage) reason, or if it's simply to prevent newbies from making "wrong" connections. I do not know. I called Yamaha and the support guy could not give a definitive answer (he is now curious, also).

My speakers are the Pi Speakers 4 Pi (stereo pair), and I plan on getting 2 Rythmik FV15HP subs, and I would like to at least have the option of setting them up ala Parham's "flanking sub" method. I may or may not like this setup, but I would like to have the freedom to do this when I get the itch. Thanks!

P.S. Audioholic's president, Gene, commented in one of the Youtube videos that he was currently running a setup that, to me, sounds similar to this, but did not say how he accomplished it. (to my knowledge) Thanks!

I really cannot give you a good answer for the Yamaha 3060.

But, I can give you info on my experience on my Pio Elite VSX-82TXS:

With my setup, it is difficult to get to the back of my AVR and difficult to pull it out to access it. So, When I first bought my sub (Rythmik F15HP), I simply hooked it up to the L/R pre-outs, sent that full-range signal to my sub, and let the crossover on the sub handle the filtering. As a side note, my main L/R are GE T2s with the built in amps/subs, and I just run these full range off the speaker outputs (as rec'd by the manufacturer). This seems to be exactly what you are suggesting doing, and for my Pio AVR and my setup, it worked absolutely fine, not problems at all.

I can't remember for sure, but I think my sub has L/R inputs as well as LFE inputs.

Well, eventually, I was forced to pull out my AVR to make some other changes, so at that time I swapped my sub over to the more common config of the SW Preout or LFE pre-out, same output but some AVRs may use one or the other names. Again, no problems at all.

So, for me, no problems. I can't think of a good reason why the Yammy would say to NOT do this, but I also did not read the manual.

EDIT: Why not just use the Sub Out, but run a Y-splitter to dual subs???

Below ~100Hz or so, the sound won't be directional anyway, won't get any stereo effects.

 

[j0nnyfive]

Thanks guys for the quick responses! I appreciate your concern, prescriptively, as to why one should or should NOT setup a system in this way, and if you are curious as to the in's and out's of this method, I would like to direct you to the Pi Speakers forum for whitepapers and more detailed explanation to the benefits/drawbacks of this approach.

There is some stereophonic material out there, although limited. The primary reason for this approach (flanking positioning) is to be able to run the subs higher in frequency without localization problems, but I'm simplifying here. Please check out more detailed resources as to the benefits/drawbacks of this arrangement. (Also, my subwoofer locations will secondarily be dictated by aesthetics rather than absolute sound quality.)

Now, as to the HOW to perform this, thank you very much for your responses! This gives me more confidence that this setup configuration may work. I've read a couple other's experiences with their particular AVRs, and I'm seeing a common thread of "it works". So, your responses have also added to my confidence. I simply want to be able to do this without needing to purchase external amplification and Y splitters.

More info on my planned setup: Mains will be run full range (sensitivity of 98db), bass will be blended with subs which will be low passed at higher than 80hz most likely. The "blending" will be seeking a room-mode-helping "dense interference" pattern rather than a "perfect summation" pattern.

Again, I may or may not stick with this setup, but I would like to have the freedom to do it. After all, if I run into a cool stereophonic trance album, I don't wanna get that "what if" feeling. I have personally heard a stereophonic setup, and it sounded great to me (subjectivity, my ears your ears and all that). Thanks!

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes, the only advantage would be to run the subs higher in frequency. Otherwise low frequency information is best mono, as it leads to less room interaction.

I have the best of both worlds, with the BSC stereo and below 60 mono. That is with true full range speakers, no subs, as I don't need them.

 

[j0nnyfive]

TLS Guy: Your setup sounds interesting! I envy your not needing subs! I simply don't know how to deal with room mode or boundary reflection issues without subs or corner loaded type speaker designs!

 

[slipperybidness]

TLS Guy: Your setup sounds interesting! I envy your not needing subs! I simply don't know how to deal with room mode or boundary reflection issues without subs or corner loaded type speaker designs!

Yeah, TLS is not an average user! Not even an average engineer, just not average.

I did want to address this comment:
I simply want to be able to do this without needing to purchase external amplification and Y splitters.

You do realize that the Rythmik FV15HP has "external amplification", right? What I mean is that this sub has its own amp that is external to any AVR amps. And, dunno why you would have some arbitrary aversion to Y-splitters?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I read an interesting article by The late great Tom Nousaine. In it he tested the benefits, or lack thereof, stereo bass. I've tried to link it but every link goes to a site that has his site for sale. Wth? Anybody have a good link? Not trying to dissuade here necessarily but just add a reference point.

 

[j0nnyfive]

Thanks for the continued discussion!

Slippery: I probably should have worded that sentence differently. I should have said "I don't want to buy more boxes n' stuff than what I'm already planning on purchasing." My only aversion is unnecessary purchases/redundant equipment. I love Y-splitters! I'm president of the "I love Y-splitters" club! Would you like to join?

William: Thanks for this information! It sounds interesting and I would like to read it! As I mentioned, I'm more interested in the "how-to" rather than "should I" aspect. I simply want the option of doing so without buying a ton of separate boxes/components. If I like it or not, I would like to know if that option is there, and if it's easy to accomplish with limited equipment.