Stereo Listening Using a miniDSP for Bass Management/Room Correction

guitarmadman85

guitarmadman85

Enthusiast
I've been getting back into audio the past 6 months or so and have been upgrading my previous gear which consisted of the Pioneer Andrew Jones 5.1 speaker system and a Sony STR-DN1050 receiver. I upgraded to a 4.1 system that consists of Klipsch Reference Premiere speakers (RP-6000f towers, the 6 inch version of the 8000f that was well reviewed here at Audioholics) and an SVS SB-1000 sub. The receiver is the same.

The reason I've been getting back into audio is because of music. I wanted better stereo performance than I was getting from my HT receiver, so I bought an Emotiva BasX A-300 (150 watts into 8 ohms). The amp was a big improvement for stereo listening, especially in the bass regions (more control). Then I watched the Audioholics YouTube video about room correction, and with all the time we have on our hands with the lockdowns, I decided to try music again through my HT receiver, only this time with the towers set to "small" and crossed over at 80 Hz. The sound was incredible! More weight and depth in the bass, more clear in the treble, and much more dynamic! It's not the same when I use the speaker level connections on the subwoofer and the stereo amp. The bass is louder, but it's not as clean. It makes everything sound more muddy.

I want to integrate my subwoofer into my stereo setup with the Emotiva amp. From what I can tell, the best way to do this would be to buy a miniDSP 2x4 HD and set the crossovers for the subwoofer and the speakers. I might as well do some room correction while I'm there (which is a rabbit hole I'm quickly falling into).

Is there another/better way to accomplish this? Why does bass management of my towers (that are rated down to 35 Hz) with a sub sound better than a dedicated stereo amp (with or without the sub)? Am I just hearing things, or will we not really know until I get some measuring equipment? Thanks!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I would be looking for a receiver with preouts. Marantz and Denon have one of the better room correction programs starting with the 6*** and 3*** series respectively.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Is there another/better way to accomplish this? Why does bass management of my towers (that are rated down to 35 Hz) with a sub sound better than a dedicated stereo amp (with or without the sub)? Am I just hearing things, or will we not really know until I get some measuring equipment? Thanks!
Your towers may be rated down to 35 hz, but at what volume? That spec probably means usable bass, which can be heard, but lacks volume and weight. A good sub however, lives in the 20-35 hz region and are just better designed for playing deeper frequencies.

Not to mention passing the low frequencies off to your subs takes stress off your amp and speakers allowing for better dynamics and even more clarity in some cases.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Could have something to do with placement too. That’s usually the first thing. Like pogre said, we don’t know I’d 35hz is f3 or f6 or what. And due to placement, the sub could be giving you a better response at your seat. Although my towers measure down into the low 30’s, the 3 subs in the room just fill it better. I think that’s true for most systems.
I’d think the sb1k wouldn’t be able to add much dynamically. Unless the room is small.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I wouldn't expect using a two ch intergrated amp without bass management to be as good as an avr with bass management.....
 
guitarmadman85

guitarmadman85

Enthusiast
Your towers may be rated down to 35 hz, but at what volume? That spec probably means usable bass, which can be heard, but lacks volume and weight. A good sub however, lives in the 20-35 hz region and are just better designed for playing deeper frequencies.

Not to mention passing the low frequencies off to your subs takes stress off your amp and speakers allowing for better dynamics and even more clarity in some cases.
I feel like it increases the clarity a lot. I feel like music sounds more immersive. More alive.
 
guitarmadman85

guitarmadman85

Enthusiast
I wouldn't expect using a two ch intergrated amp without bass management to be as good as an avr with bass management.....
For music though? Conventional stereo wisdom would say that a good dac into a good dedicated stereo amp with good speakers is the best. What HiFi has a quote that "The truth is that, when it comes to two-channel music, even the best AV amplifiers can’t hold a candle to the vast majority of stereo amps." My receiver was one of the best reviewed $500 receivers for that year, but it's still just a $500 receiver. I just want to understand why I'm hearing what I'm hearing. I think it's a combination of a subwoofer producing bass notes better, my speakers sound more alive when they're crossed over at 80 Hz, and the fact that the AVR has delay times on all channels.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I feel like it increases the clarity a lot. I feel like music sounds more immersive. More alive.
I believe it. After upgrading my speakers, getting a pair of good subwoofers properly integrated into my system was the next big eye opener "wow" moment for me. I had no idea that adding quality subwoofers could have such an impact across the entire frequency range. I was pretty firmly in the camp of, "oh I have plenty of bass, I don't need a bigger sub."

Still, I let myself be talked into it and like I said, it was an eye-opener. I'm using an AVR to integrate because it's hard to beat their bass management. I have a mini also, but a good receiver with good bass management makes your job a lot easier and does it well. A lot of stereo only or 2-channel rigs lack that.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
For music though? Conventional stereo wisdom would say that a good dac into a good dedicated stereo amp with good speakers is the best. What HiFi has a quote that "The truth is that, when it comes to two-channel music, even the best AV amplifiers can’t hold a candle to the vast majority of stereo amps." My receiver was one of the best reviewed $500 receivers for that year, but it's still just a $500 receiver. I just want to understand why I'm hearing what I'm hearing. I think it's a combination of a subwoofer producing bass notes better, my speakers sound more alive when they're crossed over at 80 Hz, and the fact that the AVR has delay times on all channels.
For music, yes. Why not? DACs have come a long way and most are competently made at this point. Some may spec a little better, but we're talking in inaudible ranges. @PENG is far better at explaining than I am, but today's mid range and higher avr's have very respectable measurements and good dacs.

In a double blind testing scenario, all things equal and done within operating specs I don't believe a person could tell the difference between a mid range avr and an expensive 2 channel stereo receiver.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
For music though? Conventional stereo wisdom would say that a good dac into a good dedicated stereo amp with good speakers is the best. What HiFi has a quote that "The truth is that, when it comes to two-channel music, even the best AV amplifiers can’t hold a candle to the vast majority of stereo amps." My receiver was one of the best reviewed $500 receivers for that year, but it's still just a $500 receiver. I just want to understand why I'm hearing what I'm hearing. I think it's a combination of a subwoofer producing bass notes better, my speakers sound more alive when they're crossed over at 80 Hz, and the fact that the AVR has delay times on all channels.
What difference does "for music" make particularly? Why on earth would I take anything whathifi has to say seriously? My avr has a very good dac, don't need some separate little box for that. Conventional wisdom of the guys selling this concept? Same guys who use silly power cords, speaker wires and other goofy doodads and think vinyl is the greatest thing still? I have older 2ch analog gear as well as avrs. IMO the two ch analog only gear isn't that different, just less useful, particularly for multich audio and using subs. Some still prefer to live in the past....
 
guitarmadman85

guitarmadman85

Enthusiast
For music, yes. Why not? DACs have come a long way and most are competently made at this point. Some may spec a little better, but we're talking in inaudible ranges. @PENG is far better at explaining than I am, but today's mid range and higher avr's have very respectable measurements and good dacs.

In a double blind testing scenario, all things equal and done within operating specs I don't believe a person could tell the difference between a mid range avr and an expensive 2 channel stereo receiver.
I think that might be especially true when using proper bass management. My towers are super efficient, and I'd imagine that crossing them over at 80 Hz negates a lot of the amplifier difference between an AVR and stereo amp.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I think that might be especially true when using proper bass management. My towers are super efficient, and I'd imagine that crossing them over at 80 Hz negates a lot of the difference between the amps in my AVR and stereo amp.
I'd be willing to bet the farm any differences between the 2 are inaudible and would come down to the bass management, room correction and type of eq applied (which is where an avr shines over most typical stereo receivers). At the core with no dsp, no bass management in a pure direct setting and level matched they really should (and most likely will) sound exactly the same.
 
guitarmadman85

guitarmadman85

Enthusiast
I'd be willing to bet the farm any differences between the 2 are inaudible and would come down to the bass management, room correction and type of eq applied (which is where an avr shines over most typical stereo receivers). At the core with no dsp, no bass management in a pure direct setting and level matched they really should (and most likely will) sound exactly the same.
The stereo amp does sound better than the stereo mode on my receiver, especially in the bass region. More control is the way I'd describe it.

I think what I've learned is that: a good subwoofer + good bass management makes a much bigger difference than a dedicated stereo amp and a dedicated dac.

I think I'll still get a miniDSP. That way I can calibrate the bass, do some room correction, and use the Emotiva stereo amp (it is a better amp than my receiver). It should be the best of both worlds.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
The stereo amp does sound better than the stereo mode on my receiver, especially in the bass region. More control is the way I'd describe it.

I think what I've learned is that: a good subwoofer + good bass management makes a much bigger difference than a dedicated stereo amp and a dedicated dac.

I think I'll still get a miniDSP. That way I can calibrate the bass, do some room correction, and use the Emotiva stereo amp (it is a better amp than my receiver). It should be the best of both worlds.
Try comparing with pure/direct setting on your avr. That removes all signal processing. Same with your stereo receiver. If it has tone controls that's going to color the sound. Also different gain structures can result in different levels between the 2. IOW if one is even half a dB louder (at the same dial setting) it can be perceived as sounding cleaner and better. That's why I mention level matching, preferably using a good dB meter so you know they're actually matched.

Don't underestimate expectation bias and the placebo effect either. This is where a lot of the snake oil companies get you with their marketing. Just knowing which one you're listening to is enough to change your perception. That's why I say double blind testing as well.
 
guitarmadman85

guitarmadman85

Enthusiast
Try comparing with pure/direct setting on your avr. That removes all signal processing. Same with your stereo receiver. If it has tone controls that's going to color the sound. Also different gain structures can result in different levels between the 2. IOW if one is even half a dB louder (at the same dial setting) it can be perceived as sounding cleaner and better. That's why I mention level matching, preferably using a good dB meter so you know they're actually matched.

Don't underestimate expectation bias and the placebo effect either. This is where a lot of the snake oil companies get you with their marketing. Just knowing which one you're listening to is enough to change your perception. That's why I say double blind testing as well.
You make good points, and you're probably right. I can really relate to your experience before getting a sub. I figured I had more than enough bass as well. The sub really improved the sound across the spectrum. I can't imagine how 2 would sound.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
You make good points, and you're probably right. I can really relate to your experience before getting a sub. I figured I had more than enough bass as well. The sub really improved the sound across the spectrum. I can't imagine how 2 would sound.
Ooooor........ even a pb2000...
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
You make good points, and you're probably right. I can really relate to your experience before getting a sub. I figured I had more than enough bass as well. The sub really improved the sound across the spectrum. I can't imagine how 2 would sound.
Dual subs are more for having an even response across a larger area. If you have good bass at your seat already it wouldn't change much for that spot, but would (hopefully) sound just as good on either side of you, in front and behind. That plus a little bit more headroom is never a bad thing. A 2nd sub is doubling your power output but in real world it's only a 3 dB gain in total spl = a little bit more headroom.

Here's a cool calculator you can play with to help illustrate what I mean about doubling your power output.

I don't know how big your room is and the SB1000 is a nice little sub, with extra emphasis on "little"... you may well benefit from duals or even a larger sub.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Ha! I got it in this time! I was typing while you were posting! :p
Rofl...maybe it’s my own upgraditis, but I don’t think I can drop into a thread without recommending a new sub.
But to be fair, an sb1k while a good starter, is just a starter. Am I evil?(no not the cover song lol)
 
Old Onkyo

Old Onkyo

Audioholic General
Dual subs are more for having an even response across a larger area. If you have good bass at your seat already it wouldn't change much for that spot, but would (hopefully) sound just as good on either side of you, in front and behind. That plus a little bit more headroom is never a bad thing. A 2nd sub is doubling your power output but in real world it's only a 3 dB gain in total spl = a little bit more headroom.

Here's a cool calculator you can play with to help illustrate what I mean about doubling your power output.

I don't know how big your room is and the SB1000 is a nice little sub, with extra emphasis on "little"... you may well benefit from duals or even a larger sub.
Always buy more bass than you think you need. Trust me.
 
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