Stereo imaging 3D

[TankTop5]

Just put my Dynaudio Special 40’s back in the box per my wife and hooked my older Focal 706’s back up. The Dyn’s crush the Focals in every way except what I’m calling imaging. Just checking to see if I’m using the term properly? The Dyn’s and Focals give the illusion of a center channel but the Focals jump way ahead as I’ll hear a helicopter fly over my head or gunfire from 90° from my listening position. What is the terminology for what I’m describing, imaging or soundstage or something else?

 

[Grant.M]

Just put my Dynaudio Special 40’s back in the box per my wife and hooked my older Focal 706’s back up. The Dyn’s crush the Focals in every way except what I’m calling imaging. Just checking to see if I’m using the term properly? The Dyn’s and Focals give the illusion of a center channel but the Focals jump way ahead as I’ll hear a helicopter fly over my head or gunfire from 90° from my listening position. What is the terminology for what I’m describing, imaging or soundstage or something else?

The imaging occurs in/on the soundstage. So for example, the gun fire sounds are imaged well in the soundstage.

 

[TankTop5]

The imaging occurs in/on the soundstage. So for example, the gun fire sounds are imaged well in the soundstage.

Can you elaborate on that a little bit. What exactly is the soundstage? How big can a stereo sound stage be? I’m assuming speaker design and placement within the room can affect the size and shape of the soundstage?

 

[Grant.M]

Can you elaborate on that a little bit. What exactly is the soundstage? How big can a stereo sound stage be? I’m assuming speaker design and placement within the room can affect the size and shape of the soundstage?

The soundstage can be large/deep/wide (I’ve heard some that seemed too large on certain speakers) to almost nonexistent (think a single Bluetooth speaker). A good soundstage will allow for separation in the mix for accurate imaging to occur. If the soundstage is too small/narrow/shallow then you won’t be able to discern the location of instrumentation in music. For example, vocals are typically in the center, drums towards the rear, and let’s say lead guitar on the right side and rhythm on the left (this is only for example). Speaker placement can greatly affect the soundstage as well as the sound of the speakers, especially treble range. The shape of the room also can affect the sound stage as well due to reflections, and yes speaker design does affect it as well!

Edit: Source material is one of the biggest factors as well! A bad source will always sound bad, and if you have accurate and revealing speakers it can make it worse.
Edit 2: The soundstage is like an imaginary 3D stage where sounds are located, picture an actual stage with band members on it.

 

[TankTop5]

Dumb question, is there a scientific finite measurement of soundstage and imaging?

 

[Grant.M]

Dumb question, is there a scientific finite measurement of soundstage and imaging?

Not a dumb question at all! I’m pretty sure there aren’t any ways to objectively measure soundstage and imaging, I may be wrong but I haven’t heard of any. That’s why it’s so important to read reviews and audition speakers before a purchase, as there aren’t objective measurements for everything with this hobby and everyone hears thing differently!

 

[lovinthehd]

Essentially soundstage and image are baked into the recording via use of panning and reverb controls in the mix/mastering process afaik. So unless you know the settings, don't think there's a way to backward determining of such.

 

[TankTop5]

Essentially soundstage and image are baked into the recording via use of panning and reverb controls in the mix/mastering process afaik. So unless you know the settings, don't think there's a way to backward determining of such.

So without measurements maybe I’m getting lucky with placement of one speaker over another and any two quality speakers should be capable of equal soundstage and imaging given proper placement?

 

[Grant.M]

So without measurements maybe I’m getting lucky with placement of one speaker over another and any two quality speakers should be capable of equal soundstage and imaging given proper placement?

I’m finishing up at work at the moment, but when I get home I’ll draw out a placement diagram and go over off-axis response, and toe in/toe out. And to answer your question, yes any quality speaker worth it’s price will be able to cast a good soundstage to an extent, but not equally necessarily.

 

[lovinthehd]

So without measurements maybe I’m getting lucky with placement of one speaker over another and any two quality speakers should be capable of equal soundstage and imaging given proper placement?

I don't know about "equal" but close enough I suppose depending on the speakers/room involved.

 

[Grant.M]

So without measurements maybe I’m getting lucky with placement of one speaker over another and any two quality speakers should be capable of equal soundstage and imaging given proper placement?

That’s a diagram covering the effects of toe-in/toe-out, as well as on and off axis placement in an equilateral triangle. Obviously they don’t have to be in 5 degree increments, but that’s the gist of it. Also consider ear height while seated in relation to the height of the tweeter, the angle of that should also be considered for off/on axis positioning. The dotted line represents crossing the axis’s, which isn’t at an aggressive enough of an angle in the diagram I provided to be representative of the theory (it’s should be 15-20 deg). If you’re interested it’s a theory of Earl Geddes (I believe). I didn’t have great results, but you may like them! Another thing to heavily consider are the first lateral reflections, they play a role in the tonality and direction in sound as well. The first lateral reflections are might make it more difficult to get equal in an irregularly shaped room, but if your room is rectangular then you’ll have a much easier time with directing these reflections.

Edit: Grammar corrections.

 

[TankTop5]

View attachment 30631
That’s a diagram covering the effects of toe-in/toe-out, as well as on and off axis placement in an equilateral triangle. Obviously they don’t have to be in 5 degree increments, but that’s the gist of it. Also consider ear height while seated in relation to the height of the tweeter, the angle of that should also be considered for off/on axis positioning. The dotted line represents crossing the axis’s, which isn’t at an aggressive enough of an angle in the diagram I provided to be representative of the theory (it’s should be 15-20 deg). If you’re interested it’s a theory of Earl Geddes (I believe). I didn’t have great results, but you may like them! Another thing to heavily consider are the first lateral reflections, they play a role in the tonality and direction in sound as well. The first lateral reflections are much more difficult to get equal in an irregularly shaped room, but if your room is rectangular then you’ll have a much easier time with directing these reflections.

Wow, thanks for going into such detail! Im in an L shaped room, I notice more effects to my left where the dining room is, to the right is a large window and I keep heavy curtains closed. I also get sound coming from behind where I have a split staircase going down so a lot of open space behind me.

 

[Grant.M]

Wow, thanks for going into such detail! Im in an L shaped room, I notice more effects to my left where the dining room is, to the right is a large window and I keep heavy curtains closed. I also get sound coming from behind where I have a split staircase going down so a lot of open space behind me.

My pleasure! Considering the shape and complexity of your room you’ll probably have all kinds of crazy reflections going on, in which case you probably won’t be able to do a lot to control them. I feel your pain though, I’ve got a opening to a tile hallway, two out coves, a sloped ceiling, a overhead ledge, and am open to my tile kitchen. So sadly no matter what I do there isn’t really any hope in getting perfect sound. That’s not to say we can’t get good, enjoyable sound though! By relying on furniture that can absorb reflections, as well as a thick padded rug near the first reflection point on the ground, and strategically placed acoustic treatment panels, we can control everything a bit better. You’ve already got thick curtains so that’s good! Also, keep experimenting with speaker placement and angles. A quick question, do you use an AVR, and if so what kind?

 

[TankTop5]

My pleasure! Considering the shape and complexity of your room you’ll probably have all kinds of crazy reflections going on, in which case you probably won’t be able to do a lot to control them. I feel your pain though, I’ve got a opening to a tile hallway, two out coves, a sloped ceiling, a overhead ledge, and am open to my tile kitchen. So sadly no matter what I do there isn’t really any hope in getting perfect sound. That’s not to say we can’t get good, enjoyable sound though! By relying on furniture that can absorb reflections, as well as a thick padded rug near the first reflection point on the ground, and strategically placed acoustic treatment panels, we can control everything a bit better. You’ve already got thick curtains so that’s good! Also, keep experimenting with speaker placement and angles. A quick question, do you use an AVR, and if so what kind?

No AVR, 40 year old NAD. I do have a UMIK mic, when finances allow I think I’ll get the Mini DSP with Dirac.

 

[TankTop5]

I bet you start seeing room correction in every AVR soon and integrated’s shortly after. I’ve been looking at integrated with room correction and they’re in the $3k+ price range, I think NAD is about to release a upgrade module for the C368 but I haven’t seen it yet. My wish list is an integrated 2ch with dual sub outputs with 4K pass through, 100 watt 4ohm and room correction. The funny part is I can get a 9.2 AVR that does all that or a multi channel sound bar. Why can’t they just drop all the extra amplifiers and surround processors and give me everything else for the same price? “Oh you want “”hi fi stereo”” that’ll cost you double”, FFS!

 

[Grant.M]

I bet you start seeing room correction in every AVR soon and integrated’s shortly after. I’ve been looking at integrated with room correction and they’re in the $3k+ price range, I think NAD is about to release a upgrade module for the C368 but I haven’t seen it yet. My wish list is an integrated 2ch with dual sub outputs with 4K pass through, 100 watt 4ohm and room correction. The funny part is I can get a 9.2 AVR that does all that or a multi channel sound bar. Why can’t they just drop all the extra amplifiers and surround processors and give me everything else for the same price? “Oh you want “”hi fi stereo”” that’ll cost you double”, FFS!

Probably, people seem to be wanting room correction more and more. And I feel you! I think why they charge so much more for 2Ch integrated amp is because of the demand. Most people will listen to media with their TV or phone, then you have the fewer people that Bluetooth speaker and sound bars, and fewer people who get AV equipment, and even fewer who focus mainly on two channel listening. So I think that has a large part to do with the higher prices for stuff like quality integrated 2Ch amps that doesn’t have as much necessarily going into it as say an AVR. And that sounds bada$$, I’d like a piece of equipment that will do that at a good price.

The reason I had asked if you had an AVR is that you said one channel comes through more than the other, and I know most have channel trims where you can make on channel louder or quieter. But it sounds like you’ve got everything planned out and know what you’re doing there!

 

[Grant.M]

“Oh you want “”hi fi stereo”” that’ll cost you double”, FFS!

Lmao so true!