Stading Speakers with range (down to 20htz)

J

Jfconrow

Audioholic Intern
I'm looking for speakers that have good range (the high end not as important up to 15K-20K htz, but It must produce sound down to 20htz).

Primarily for watching movies at the lowest price.
 
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C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
Only speakers I would even begin to recommend for that applications are from a company called Meridian that are rather expensive. The model is the DSP8000. They are fantastic speakers. They are digital and active, so there is associated gear you have to buy with them. The 7000s are great too, but don't go down to 20Hz. And still, Meridian sells subwoofers. ;)

There are others out there perhaps, but, I haven't heard them enough to actually recommend them to someone...perhaps someone else has here. But, a lot of people here seem to like speakers I find absolutely aweful sounding, so, use your own ears!

I'm gunna get flamed for this, but, if you are on a budget, just buy some floorstanders and a subwoofer. Unless you want to buy junk like Definitive Technology (DEAF tech, because that's what the engineers who made it must be) or similar brands.

URL for Meridian DSP: http://www.meridian-audio.com/p_d8k.htm
 
T

TEvo

Enthusiast
That's a tall order- not many speakers can produce decent and correct deep bass- even some very expensive models have difficulty with it.

I would think some of the large floorstanding units from Klipsch, Polk, JBL and Infinity should have a good deal of thump. What kind of budget?

Perhaps a subwoofer or maybe even two might be a more satisfying route to take?
 
J

Jfconrow

Audioholic Intern
The budget is not really the problem, I've had a difficult time finding full range speakers. I would even settle for speakers going down to 25 or 30htz if that's all I can find. I'm looking for the cheapest full range speaker - that probably means they will be no less than $400/pair.
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
Nevermind the Meridians than...those are more like $40,000 a pair. :)

You'll need a subwoofer at that budget if you want things to sound decent, there are some nice budget subs available and you'll hear a lot about them by searching through even the most recent posts in this section. I, personally, recommend Velodyne.
 
T

TEvo

Enthusiast
There are very few loudspeakers in the world that will do justice to the entire frequency range of 20Hz - 20KHz. And they are all very expensive.

I believe there are a few ProAc Response-series floorstanders that have mfr. claimed extension down to 20Hz. I think they range from $4,000 - $15,000.

To aid in your search, this is the time of the year all the audio rags put out their annual buyer's guides- a trip down to your local bookstore's magazine rack ought to give you some more ideas.

Good luck with your search.
 
T

TEvo

Enthusiast
cbraver said:
I'm gunna get flamed for this, but, if you are on a budget, just buy some floorstanders and a subwoofer. Unless you want to buy junk like Definitive Technology (DEAF tech, because that's what the engineers who made it must be) or similar brands.
Yowch. Tell us how you really feel. :D
 
M

MAX661

Audioholic
I guess it does depend on people's own decision, because I chose the Def Tech flagship setup over Canton, Paradigm, PSB, and many others.

Keep in mind I am 80%HT 20%music. I think they are very hard to beat when it comes to HT.
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
There are plenty of brands (including those you mentioned) I think are just as bad as Def Tech, the only reason I mentioned Def Tech is because they offer those full range speakers and I have heard them enough to actually make a decision about them. The first time I heard them was at CEDIA, and even though they had a dedicated room, I blamed it on the room. then I heard them again in a house and blamed it on installation. Then I got a chance to demo them myself and finally stopped blaming the environment and/or setup and started blaming the speakers. They are colored, inaccurate, flabby, junk.

But, my gripe goes to far more manufacturers than just Def Tech. Most speakers are absolute crap. The search is half the fun. ;)

That said, I tell people to buy whatever they like. If someone likes something that to us has bloated mids, tin highs and all kinds of aweful abnormalties .... and absolutely loves that speaker...then they should buy it. No question. It's a hobby and for that reason people should buy what they love and enjoy them. I only care about my ears, not anyone elses. ;) I say demo lots of speakers and decide what YOU like... not what some asshole on the Internet (ie. me) says. ;) I'll make recommendations (usually a lot more reasonable ones than Meridian... but, that speaker is the only one I have heard that meets such a goal) , but I always say people gotta demo. .... and tell them to start with M&K. ;)

-Chad
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
True 20Hz bass is going to cost a lot of money, either with large, expensive main speakers or a very good subwoofer. Since you seem to have movies in mind a subwoofer might work out. If you want true deep bass with music, well, that's another story.

Personally, I don't like subwoofers. Unless you get a really, really good subwoofer, with a cabinet built like a bank vault, they never seem to blend in seemlessly with the satellite speakers. A sub should never appear to have any sound coming from it. Worse than the localization problem is the level problem. It's just too tempting to turn up the bass too much, which is great for special effects, but sounds terrible in the long run on acoustic music. Getting the level right often takes an analyzer, which means more money. Some dealers will set things up right, if you spend enough money with them.

Of course, to add insult to injury, there's the damn crossover point and the crossover itself. An 80Hz crossover point means you've messed up the lower range of a grand piano (because an 80Hz crossover will have effects in the 80Hz-160Hz range). I'm a piano fan so this won't fly with me. So you make it an octave lower (40Hz), but then you've spent big money on a big sub you'll only hear contributions from in action movies now and then, or perhaps on organ music. And, to properly use a 40Hz crossover point you need main speakers that are nearly flat to 40Hz, which means you'll have big, expensive main speakers on your hands. And most of the time the system will sound better without the sub and it's crossover in the signal path!

My advice is to raise your frequency response target a bit, from 20Hz to 32Hz. There are many of good floorstanding speakers on the market that'll reproduce a pretty good 32Hz signal. 32Hz, properly reproduced with low harmonic distortion, shakes the room and makes your ears feel funny. 32Hz is deep. So if you take the money you would have spent on a sub+mains and spend them on just mains you can probably afford 32Hz mains, and the midrange and highs will probably be reproduced better too.

You didn't mention your budget limitations, but if you can afford them I'd strongly recommend you take a look at the Legacy Audio Classics. A friend has a pair as the mains in his home theater system, and they reproduce a very clean 32Hz signal that shakes the room. And they sound simply awesome on acoustic music too. I'm not sure what the price is any more, but I'd guess $2500/pair or so. I see mint used pairs on Audiogon every so often, and a different friend just picked up a 2yr old pair for about $1500. Even better, they're at least 3-5db more efficient than most other speakers, which has the same effect as doubling your amplifier power, or more. (Be forewarned, though, very efficient speakers reveal more noise from your electronics. Adding 3db of efficiency to your speakers has the effect of worsening the s/n ratio of your electronics by 3db (which DOUBLES the noise level).

www.legacyaudio.com

Of course, if you're really looking to spend less than, say, $1000, I think you're going to be disappointed. Cheap speakers that go deep are generally crap. Good low bass means you need at least a 100db capability at 40Hz at one meter, with low distortion, and that costs bucks.
 
crashguy

crashguy

Audioholic
Take a test CD with you, and use your ears to judge. You can get CDS with freq down to lower than 20Hz. Just don't use the manufacturers freq rating as a guide, they're pretty much useless, unless they specify the +/- dB attached to their freq rating. An example:

Speaker A - Rating - 23Hz to 18 KHz
Speaker B - Rating - 28Hz to 20 KHz, +/- 2dB anechoic response

Speaker A may look like it will play lower, but without the +/-, you don't know. Speaker B is properly rated, and from that, you can compare it properly to another properly rated speaker. Your ears are the best tools here. Keep in mind, room acoustics will also play a large part here. Unless you compare the two "competing" speakers in the same room, its a SWAG at best (Scientific Wild *** Guess).
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
With a subwoofer I'm pretty set on a bass management system is a must to control the crossover. I keep giving it props, but M&Ks bass management boxes are awesome... and the small one is even inexpensive.

-Chad
 
M

mitch57

Audioholic
I have Def Techs and I love them! Of course I must be "DEAF"!

Bottom line is listen with your ears not mine and definitely not with cbraver's ears because you won't be able to afford anything he hears and likes.

I would have a listen to some of the Def Techs and make that decision for yourself. Several of their speakers go down below 20hz. You might like them or you might hate them. Let YOUR ears tell you. Not mine or anyone elses.
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
Seeing from those comments, Mitch, you obviously didn't read my post about "buy what you like" and "go demo." Enjoy your Def Techs all you want, really, I don't care. If you like them, then GREAT! This hobby is about YOUR enjoyment, not anyone elses. But when people ask for opinions, they are gunna get 'em. Basically, read my last post before making stupid comments. My views on good vs bad are explained in that last paragraph. Buy what you enjoy, that's the ticket to enjoying yourself. If you would have read that (or, maybe you read it but didn't comprehend), you would have seen that we agree on speaker selection techniques, almost word for word.

I have plenty of affordable recommendations, but not speakers that go down to 20Hz. And others are agreeing with me, if he wants that, he needs a subwoofer.

Don't jump to conclusions and enjoy your speakers. ;)

-Chad
 
S

sjdgpt

Senior Audioholic
I gotta wonder why he needs "20hz". Is it because many receivers are rated 20 to 20K frequency response? Is it the idea that he can "hear" 20hz?

Regardless of the specs of the speaker, there are very, very few main speakers that are going to hit 20hz with any sort of authority (they may reach 20hz... being 10db down from their 40hz output), and those that actually do achieve that type of response are going to be far beyond the financial realities of most of us.

Even subs really have a problem getting down that low with serious output (again being 10db down from the 40hz output is not much sound power).

Everybody is got to remember for bass it all boils down to placement and room dynamics.

So why does he need 20hz response? Maybe it would be more pratical to examine the room to see if 20hz is even possible.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
The real two questions here I would think: Why is there a demand for a full range speaker from 20-20K hz? and What is your idea of 'lowest price'.

The speakers people have been talking about run into the thousands of dollars really quick. I am one of the Def Tech users, but I opted to get their speakers without built in subs as I was not happy with the integrated subs. So, I get my bass from a really good sub and match it up with my speakers.

This is what almost everyone here does as well. For that matter, is there such a thing as a full range speaker? A 'speaker' is actually a speaker cabinet with multiple drivers in it. Each speaker in the cabinet is designed to reproduce specific frequencies and the entire setup works together to produce a range. An external subwoofer is typical because it often has it's own dedicated power amp. The cost of a good 20hz capable sub with good range is likely over 500 bucks just for a single sub, and it is more reliable to sell a single speaker for $100-$1,000+ (way +) instead of engineering an additional $500.00+ of subwoofer into the same cabinet.

Also consider how boomy some subs sound when they are placed where people often locate their speakers. Put a 20hz sub into that location and you may get more one note boom then nice smooth bass. Multiply that times 5 and forget about enjoying your movie.

I would recommend 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1. If you want more bass, add a sub or two later, or get a really good sub to compliment your system.
 
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