Spending Proportions

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burkhardt.d.b

Audiophyte
So I am a college student looking to buy his first stereo setup. I've perused some audio forums, but that's about all the research I've done so far. When I went to my local audio store I had the idea in my mind that for my budget (around $700-750) I should be spending most of my money on speakers. To me, this meant spending around $500 on a pair of speakers and then filling my system in which a relatively inexpensive amp and cd player (not into vinyl, sorry!). Now when I arrived at the audio store I was told that I had my spending proportions all wrong. They didn't try to push me on price of my setup, but they wanted me to spend much more money on my cd player and receiver than I had planned. They recommended spending about $300 on speakers, $200 on a receiver and $200 on a cd player.
Now I may be completely wrong here, and I'd like to know if I am. How should I be spending my money? It's seems a little strange to me that a cd player that costs $200 can play a cd better than one that costs $100. I understand that this is all a matter of preferences, but what are your opinions on this? Where should I be spending my money on this system?
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
So I am a college student looking to buy his first stereo setup. I've perused some audio forums, but that's about all the research I've done so far. When I went to my local audio store I had the idea in my mind that for my budget (around $700-750) I should be spending most of my money on speakers.
Yep, as long as the amps ain't crap, the speakers make the biggest difference :D

Now when I arrived at the audio store I was told that I had my spending proportions all wrong. They didn't try to push me on price of my setup, but they wanted me to spend much more money on my cd player and receiver than I had planned. They recommended spending about $300 on speakers, $200 on a receiver and $200 on a cd player.
lmao no. $200 on a CD player? LOL.

Where should I be spending my money on this system?
2 powered speakers IE JBL LSR 2328

All ya need :D
 
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bikemig

Audioholic Chief
So I am a college student looking to buy his first stereo setup. I've perused some audio forums, but that's about all the research I've done so far. When I went to my local audio store I had the idea in my mind that for my budget (around $700-750) I should be spending most of my money on speakers. To me, this meant spending around $500 on a pair of speakers and then filling my system in which a relatively inexpensive amp and cd player (not into vinyl, sorry!). Now when I arrived at the audio store I was told that I had my spending proportions all wrong. They didn't try to push me on price of my setup, but they wanted me to spend much more money on my cd player and receiver than I had planned. They recommended spending about $300 on speakers, $200 on a receiver and $200 on a cd player.
Now I may be completely wrong here, and I'd like to know if I am. How should I be spending my money? It's seems a little strange to me that a cd player that costs $200 can play a cd better than one that costs $100. I understand that this is all a matter of preferences, but what are your opinions on this? Where should I be spending my money on this system?
If you own a computer (and I can't imagine that you don't), skip the CD player and use a computer audio playback system. That will allow you to focus money on speakers and a receiver or if you prefer a pair of powered speakers like GranteedEV suggested. You could get the Audioengine A-5 powered speakers ($325), http://www.amazon.com/Audioengine-Powered-Multimedia-Speaker-System/dp/B000OABTPQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1314227016&sr=1-1, and the Squeezebox Touch ($259), http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-930-000090-Squeezebox-Touch/dp/B002LARRDA/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1314227050&sr=1-1, and you're done. The A-5s and SB touch are a great sounding combo that will play any music ripped on your hard disc wirelessly plus internet radio (Pandora, Spotify, etc.).
 
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burkhardt.d.b

Audiophyte
If you own a computer (and I can't imagine that you don't), skip the CD player and use a computer audio playback system.
I do own a computer, but I've unimpressed with its sound output (2011 Macbook air). If I could upgrade it's sound card I would, but it's not possible with a laptop.
 
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bikemig

Audioholic Chief
I do own a computer, but I've unimpressed with its sound output (2011 Macbook air). If I could upgrade it's sound card I would, but it's not possible with a laptop.
Agreed, the audio out from a laptop is often poor. That isn't an issue with the SB Touch since it handles the D to A conversion and it has a fine sound quality.

Edit: I'm a Mac fan as well; the biggest problem with the air is that there isn't a lot of space on the SSD but external hard discs are cheap.
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I do own a computer, but I've unimpressed with its sound output (2011 Macbook air). If I could upgrade it's sound card I would, but it's not possible with a laptop.
It sure is. All you need is a USB Sound Card. $75

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOBILEPRE-Preamp-USB-Computer-interface-M-AUDIO-NEW-/170685311213?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27bda328ed#ht_1431wt_1185

I suspect however, that hooked up to some real speakers like the JBL LSRs, you'll be satisfied with the output jacks of the laptop as well.
 
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burkhardt.d.b

Audiophyte
If you own a computer (and I can't imagine that you don't), skip the CD player and use a computer audio playback system. That will allow you to focus money on speakers and a receiver or if you prefer a pair of powered speakers like GranteedEV suggested.
Unfortunately the wireless internet at my school won't allow me to use a wifi enabled device that doesn't contain a browser to login and you have to login every time if you aren't running osx, windows, or linux. What would you reccomend I do in this situation? Is getting a USB sound card (or thunderbolt PCIe soundcard when they come out with the chassis) a suitable substitution?

Also, I think I would rather buy speakers from a store where I can audition them because there's a specific sound I'm looking for i.e. a little bright, forward and articulate. In this case do you guys have any recommendations on amplifiers and my price range for them?

P.S. Thanks for all of the great help already guys!
 
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bikemig

Audioholic Chief
Unfortunately the wireless internet at my school won't allow me to use a wifi enabled device that doesn't contain a browser to login and you have to login every time if you aren't running osx, windows, or linux. What would you reccomend I do in this situation? Is getting a USB sound card (or thunderbolt PCIe soundcard when they come out with the chassis) a suitable substitution?

Also, I think I would rather buy speakers from a store where I can audition them because there's a specific sound I'm looking for i.e. a little bright, forward and articulate. In this case do you guys have any recommendations on amplifiers and my price range for them?

P.S. Thanks for all of the great help already guys!
Your macbook air with itunes is a great front end for your music. The disc space is limited but you can simply use a usb hard disc for your music and you will want one to back up all your work for school as well.

I know what a pain it can be to get a wifi device working with a university internet provider so skipping wifi makes sense. Almost all macs support digital out from the headphone out (with a minitoslink to toslink); I don't think the air does but it is worth finding out if it does. If it does, you're in great shape because then you can connect your laptop via the digital out to a receiver with a digital input. Alternatively you can use a usb dac; the HRT music streamer II is very, very good for $150, http://www.amazon.com/HRT-Music-Streamer-II-Resolution/dp/B0038O4UFQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1314241475&sr=1-1. A usb dac is the easiest way to improve the sound quality when using a laptop.

Then you can go with an amp/receiver and speakers or, alternatively, powered or active monitors. The Audioengine A-5s sound really good and you get a 30 day audition in which to try them out if you buy them directly from audioengine, http://audioengineusa.com/Store/Audioengine-5. The A-5s and the HRT will set you back less than $500.

Edit: this is another possibility for $500 if you want a desktop computer based rig, http://estore.nuforce.com/products/NuForce-Icon%2d2-and-Tangent%2dAudio-EVO-E5-Bundle-Sale.html.
 
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j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
You can check craigslist or something similar for a cheap used CD player. Doesn't need to be brand new or $200. I sold my Denon 2900, which is an excellent player and originally $1000, for $125. So great players are out there cheap.

There's an Oppo 980 in the classifies right here on AH.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
So I am a college student looking to buy his first stereo setup. I've perused some audio forums, but that's about all the research I've done so far. When I went to my local audio store I had the idea in my mind that for my budget (around $700-750) I should be spending most of my money on speakers. To me, this meant spending around $500 on a pair of speakers and then filling my system in which a relatively inexpensive amp and cd player (not into vinyl, sorry!). Now when I arrived at the audio store I was told that I had my spending proportions all wrong. They didn't try to push me on price of my setup, but they wanted me to spend much more money on my cd player and receiver than I had planned. They recommended spending about $300 on speakers, $200 on a receiver and $200 on a cd player.
Now I may be completely wrong here, and I'd like to know if I am. How should I be spending my money? It's seems a little strange to me that a cd player that costs $200 can play a cd better than one that costs $100. I understand that this is all a matter of preferences, but what are your opinions on this? Where should I be spending my money on this system?
You were completely right and they were completely wrong. It is nice when one can state that!

If you don't mind buying used gear from places like Craiglist, you can even make the percentage on amplification and the CD player less, and have more to spend on the all important speakers.

Now, there is one exception to this, and that is if you happen to select speakers that are difficult to drive (e.g., inefficient and low impedance), and then you will need a better amplifier than most speakers require. But in most cases, the vast majority of your budget should be spend on speakers.


Also, don't let the salespeople talk you into buying magic wires.

Basically, it is the job of a salesperson to part you from your money. Remember that. And also, always think carefully about your choices, and don't believe anything that anyone says unless it makes sense.

For example, it is easy to get a nearly perfect frequency response from a CD player and from an amplifier, but no matter how much money you spend on your speakers, you will never get one with a frequency response as flat as any decent CD player or amplifier, even cheap ones. The same idea applies to things like total harmonic distortion and most other parameters. Put your money into your speakers, and they will still be the weakest link in the chain. But if you put less into your speakers, they will be even weaker still.
 
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Midwesthonky

Audioholic General
One thing I noticed in looking at the Slingbox was it has a USB port to allow you to run music off of a USB drive (thumbdrive). So you don't necessarily have to stick to running from your laptop.

If you run powered speakers as suggested, it opens up a lot of possibilities. I've used powered speakers to play music straight from an mp3 player before. iPods are expensive and would chew up a bunch of your budget. But Creative Labs has their Zen series of mp3 players that are very good and less expensive than an iPod. Not for playing games, but if you are looking at just music, it is a viable option.

Or, if you already own an mp3 player, you are off and running already with just the powered speakers. That way you can use some of your budget for more music. Or candles for a date with a lady and Barry White. :D
 
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Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
...

Also, I think I would rather buy speakers from a store where I can audition them because there's a specific sound I'm looking for i.e. a little bright, forward and articulate. In this case do you guys have any recommendations on amplifiers and my price range for them?

...
You have to pick your speakers first, because the amplification you will need will depend upon their efficiency and impedance characteristics. In most cases, a very cheap receiver or integrated amplifier will be fine ($100), but there are some that are more difficult to drive.

As for buying speakers locally that you can hear first, that is ideal, but sometimes one can find better speakers for one's money online. So there is a bit of a dilemma there that can make it hard to decide what is really best.

From your description of "articulate", if your budget were just a little higher, I would recommend these:

http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMG

Unless you are near the factory in Minnesota, you would have difficulty hearing them first, but if there is a local Magnepan dealer, you could hear one model up, and just remember that the MMG does not go quite as deep in the bass and cannot play quite as loud, but is otherwise very similar. But that will take you just over budget, unless you can find an incredible deal on a used amplifier and CD player via Craigslist or a thrift store or some such place. You can probably find a tolerable CD player in a thrift store for next to nothing, but an amplifier to drive those 4 ohm speakers will be harder to find at a low price.

Actually, from a quick online search, I found this:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-601

Currently slightly cheaper at:

http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AMP-100-2-Channel-Bridgeable-Amplifier/dp/B00026BQJ6

You would have limited maximum volume, but enough for normal use in a small room.

Combined with a CD player from a thrift store, you could have those MMG speakers in your budget.
 
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burkhardt.d.b

Audiophyte
Current Plan

Put your money into your speakers, and they will still be the weakest link in the chain. But if you put less into your speakers, they will be even weaker still.
So I went back to the store and listened to some speakers the salesman brought in, they were a pair of Snell K IIs. I know they were old, but I really liked the way they sound. They needed to be refoamed, but otherwise I enjoyed them. I know I could spend more money, but for $175, I get something that I like and will enjoy! For my front end, I ordered HRT's Music Streamer II after reading several favorable reviews and suggestions. The only question now is my amp. The salesman had a NAD 7020 Amp he wanted to sell me for $200. Doing some research, that price looks a little high. I'm planning on offering him $150 for them, but otherwise, it looks okay. I'll get the opportunity to audition them next week along with the refoamed Snells.

In review:
Macbook Air with HRT Music Streamer II's $150
NAD 7020 Integrated Receiver $150-200
Snell Type K/II Loudspeakers $175

Total: $475-525

P.S. I would post links, but I need 1 more post before I can =(
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
So I went back to the store and listened to some speakers the salesman brought in, they were a pair of Snell K IIs. I know they were old, but I really liked the way they sound. They needed to be refoamed, but otherwise I enjoyed them. I know I could spend more money, but for $175, I get something that I like and will enjoy! For my front end, I ordered HRT's Music Streamer II after reading several favorable reviews and suggestions. The only question now is my amp. The salesman had a NAD 7020 Amp he wanted to sell me for $200. Doing some research, that price looks a little high. I'm planning on offering him $150 for them, but otherwise, it looks okay. I'll get the opportunity to audition them next week along with the refoamed Snells.

In review:
Macbook Air with HRT Music Streamer II's $150
NAD 7020 Integrated Receiver $150-200
Snell Type K/II Loudspeakers $175

Total: $475-525

P.S. I would post links, but I need 1 more post before I can =(
The Snell K/II retailed for $465 in 1991. Factoring in inflation, that would be $734.85 in 2010.

So, you are not going with cheap speakers, you are going with used speakers that cost less than they would if they were new. Being willing to buy used often gets one more for one's money, though it is also with greater risk and the condition of the item is almost always worse.

Make sure you refoam them or have them refoamed before you use them. Otherwise, you may damage the woofers and then they will require reconing, which is much more expensive.
 
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burkhardt.d.b

Audiophyte
Being willing to buy used often gets one more for one's money, though it is also with greater risk and the condition of the item is almost always worse.
What's your opinion on the amp? It was supposed to be great when it came out, Stereophile says that the NAD 3020 was one of the greatest budget amps of all time and this is just the 3020 with the 4020 tuner. I'm just worried that at only 20W/PC they might not be at powerful as something else I could buy for around the same price. I don't plan on playing music loud all the time, but I'd like to be able to crank it up every once in a while.

EDIT: Also, at this price range I could throw in a budget sub and add to the bass without going over-budget. Any suggestions? I found a PDR 10 on craigslist for $80, will this work for me?
 
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bikemig

Audioholic Chief
What's your opinion on the amp? It was supposed to be great when it came out, Stereophile says that the NAD 3020 was one of the greatest budget amps of all time and this is just the 3020 with the 4020 tuner. I'm just worried that at only 20W/PC they might not be at powerful as something else I could buy for around the same price. I don't plan on playing music loud all the time, but I'd like to be able to crank it up every once in a while.

EDIT: Also, at this price range I could throw in a budget sub and add to the bass without going over-budget. Any suggestions? I found a PDR 10 on craigslist for $80, will this work for me?
Check out the specs on the Snell speakers to see how efficient they are; 20 watts of clean power (and NAD is conservative on its specs) can be more than sufficient. You could also go with a manufacturer refurbished stereo receiver; accessories4less has the Marantz SR 4023 (80 watts) for $280, http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/category/StereoReceivers/Home-Audio/Stereo-Receivers/1.html.
 
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burkhardt.d.b

Audiophyte
Check out the specs on the Snell speakers to see how efficient they are; 20 watts of clean power (and NAD is conservative on its specs) can be more than sufficient.
Novice question here, but how do I find out how efficient the speakers are? I know a little bit about impedance matching, but I wouldn't say I have a firm grasp on it. They have a nominal impedance of 6Ohms, but to be completely honest I have no idea how that effects the speaker practically. I also noticed that they are recommended to have 10-100W of power, but how can they be compatible such a wide range? If you'd like to send me some good educational materials or explain this to me, I'd really appreciate it.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
What's your opinion on the amp? It was supposed to be great when it came out, Stereophile says that the NAD 3020 was one of the greatest budget amps of all time and this is just the 3020 with the 4020 tuner. I'm just worried that at only 20W/PC they might not be at powerful as something else I could buy for around the same price. I don't plan on playing music loud all the time, but I'd like to be able to crank it up every once in a while.

EDIT: Also, at this price range I could throw in a budget sub and add to the bass without going over-budget. Any suggestions? I found a PDR 10 on craigslist for $80, will this work for me?
Do you really mean the 7020? Or do you mean the 7020e or 7020i?

In any case, NAD is a well-respected company, and they are known for being able to exceed their continuous power rating for musical peaks. However, it is better if an amplifier is capable of plenty of continuous power than just for peaks, as the value of "peak" power depends on how long of a peak you require and how long the amplifier is capable of providing that peak power. If the amplifier can do some level of power continuously, it can handle any peak at or below that level of power for as long as the peak lasts.

Personally, I would not pay $200 for that receiver (no matter which one it is), but it is likely that it is adequate.


As for the subwoofer, I would wait until I had enough to buy a really good one, but your tastes may be different from mine, and you may very well enjoy some added bass to the speakers. Also, a really good one will cost about what your entire budget is (that is, for a new one), so if you think you will never be willing to pay that, you might decide to get a lesser one instead. I do, however, recommend that you see how you like the speakers alone for a while before bothering with a subwoofer, unless you are getting some sort of package deal at a reduced price.



Novice question here, but how do I find out how efficient the speakers are? I know a little bit about impedance matching, but I wouldn't say I have a firm grasp on it. They have a nominal impedance of 6Ohms, but to be completely honest I have no idea how that effects the speaker practically. I also noticed that they are recommended to have 10-100W of power, but how can they be compatible such a wide range? If you'd like to send me some good educational materials or explain this to me, I'd really appreciate it.
For the long answer to that and a few other questions, read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker

Although it is not accurate to do so (see link above), most people use the words "efficiency" and "sensitivity" interchangeably, and the rating you would look for is the sensitivity. A pretty average speaker will be rated near 90dB @ 1 watt @ 1 meter, and a very sensitive speaker will be 6 or more dB above that, with some being significantly over 100dB @ 1 watt @ 1 meter (here is a famous example). Low sensitivity speakers will be about 5 or more dB below 90dB (please note, "high" and "low" do not have precisely agreed upon definitions in this context; this is vague and approximate).

Now, a few dB difference in sensitivity can make a very significant difference in the power required, as it takes a doubling of power to increase the volume by 3dB (this ratio applies to all speakers of any sensitivity whatsoever, until one is reaching the maximum limits of the speaker). Thus, a speaker with a sensitivity of 90dB @ 1 watt @ 1 meter requires 2 watts to produce 93dB @ 1 meter, 4 watts to produce 96dB @ 1 meter, 8 watts to produce 99dB @ 1 meter, etc. Now, 90dB is fairly loud, but usually people sit further away than 1 meter, and it is not terribly uncommon to listen to music with peaks that go louder (or, if you are trying to cause deafness in yourself by recreating the loudest rock concert ever, you will go significantly above 100dB).

For examples of how loud something is at various decibel (dB) levels, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure#Examples_of_sound_pressure_and_sound_pressure_levels


The Snell speakers you are considering are rated at 90dB @ 1 watt @ 1 meter, so for normal use by sane people, 20 watts will be adequate, but if your room is particularly large or you want it very loud, it may not be. The way to find out is to try it, but you had better get the woofers refoamed first.


As for the range listed for power appropriate for a speaker, the reason there can be such a range is that not everyone requires the maximum volume of which a speaker is capable, and normal use often involves using very little power. With most speakers in normal situations, listening to background music is going to be using less than 1 watt, though obviously this somewhat depends on what counts as "background" music. Also, how loud it will be in a specific room depends upon the acoustics of that specific room, so even two people who want the same exact volume from the same speakers may require different levels of power due to differences in their rooms.

In general, if you are going to listen at background music levels, the minimum the manufacturer suggests is probably adequate, but if you listen at really loud volumes, you will probably want something at or near the maximum power suggested. But there are no hard and fast rules on this, as a suggestion by a manufacturer is whatever they personally think; there is no objective standard for this.


The impedance of a speaker is important for amplifier matching, but it has no direct relevance to how good the speaker sounds. There are some great speakers that are an easy impedance to drive, and some great ones that are quite difficult for amplifiers (here is a famous example). The impedance of a speaker varies by frequency; the "nominal" impedance is supposed to be what you can pretend it is at all frequencies for the purpose of amplifier matching. If the speaker manufacturer is honest and competent, you can pretend that the speaker is the rated nominal impedance, but some give a higher impedance than is appropriate for this, because they want to sell their speakers and do not want to miss out on a sale to someone just because they lack the proper amplification for it. The best way is to look at an impedance curve of a speaker to determine this, though if you know the minimum impedance of the speaker and if your amplifier is capable of continuous output into that impedance, you should be fine. If the impedance dip is very high at 20kHz (as with some electrostatic speakers, such as some Martin Logans), it will not matter so much as if it were in the midrange or bass, where more power is required and where more musical content exists. One can safely drive such a speaker with an amplifier that is not rated for continuous output into that impedance, provided that there are no such dips in the impedance curve lower down, though you will not want to use just any amplifier with such a speaker either. So it is not quite as simple as just looking for the minimum impedance.
 
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burkhardt.d.b

Audiophyte
You can do better for $200.
I just found a Rotel RA 970BX on Audiogon I could probably get for $200. It's a little bit newer than the 7020, has a slightly lower THD, and at 60W I think it'll do me just fine. It doesn't have a tuner in it, but I honestly don't care about that. I'd rather stream radio from the internet. Thanks for all your help, guys!
 
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