Speakers are all subjective!

[fredk]

Great Info Chris. It backs up what I was trying to write earlier in this thread and what all good marketers already know and use.

That one about critiqueing a live band is priceless.

Diapason. I love the sound of my Yamaha 12 string no matter where I play it! If I win the lotto, I'll give that full orchestra in my aprtment thing a whirl.

On a related note, I think that a (relatively) flat frequency response is only one piece of the story. If I understand correctly, it tells you how consistantly sound will be reproduced. It dosn't tell you what sounds the speaker will reproduce.

I did a/b auditioning of three different speakers from Axiom and there was a definite difference in what I heard between them, even though they share the same drivers (in different configurations) and probably the same (or very similar crossover design. All three show a nice flat frequency response. The difference in the presentation of vacals between the M22 and M80 was very surprising.

Fred

 

[haraldo]

No.

Various researchers in this field have measured the frequency response at the listening position, and nearly all have found that a slight roll off in the treble should be present in the listening position, for commercial recordings to sound 'neutral' in tonal balance to subjects.

Here is a graph of the ideal response, as measured at the listening position, comparing the results of several highly respected researchers in the field. I tend to give the Toole response(the least aggressive curve on top) the most credibility, as he has historically produced the most important and credible series of scientific research in the field of loudspeaker and room sound reproduction:

http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/images/er4-old-graph.gif

-Chris

My apologies if you have explained this in other parts of the thread....
I think this to be very interesting indeed !

Do you have any suggestions why a slight roll off in the treble should be present in the listening position, for commercial recordings to sound 'neutral' in tonal balance to subjects. There must be an effect behind this that is repeatably measurable and that may be explained by how the ear works or how our brain works or something else

 

[WmAx]

My apologies if you have explained this in other parts of the thread....
I think this to be very interesting indeed !

Do you have any suggestions why a slight roll off in the treble should be present in the listening position, for commercial recordings to sound 'neutral' in tonal balance to subjects. There must be an effect behind this that is repeatably measurable and that may be explained by how the ear works or how our brain works or something else

I will have to speculate. Here it goes:

Since commercial recordings vary from sample to sample, a precise quantification can not be had. But, if you examine the way most commercial recordings are made, the process would accentuate high frequencies as compared to a live, non-amplified presentation. For example, vocals are almost always done in near-field of a mic, boosting high frequencies. In addition, most popular vocal mics used in the studios have several dB boost in the upper mid and lower treble band. The same goes for how most things are recorded: in a close proximity using mics with colorized(boosted) upper mids/lower treble. Even classical music may in many cases be recorded at a closer distance than is representative of where a standard listener in the audience may be located, causing high frequency boosting.

-Chris

 

[mtrycrafts]

WOW....
Did the article correlate "flat frequency response" with having the best perceived sound?

Not that one, but research at the Canadian research facility has shown that people overall do like the same sounds and can be correlated to speaker measurements rather nicely.

Their research included hundreds of speakers and a lot of listeners. The notion that each of us want different sounding speaker is not based in fact.

http://miragespeakers.com/nrc_story.shtml

While this is from Mirage, it explains the research at NRC. Remember, Dr. Toole was there for 20 years or so doing research before Harman.

 

[mziegler]

I also found that blind testing speakers can be a crock sometimes as well. The Dali and B&W exhibited such a different sonic signature that we could tell which one was playing every time.

This is absolutely true--kind of like judging a red and white wine. Context is important.

Yet it does not go far enough. Even speakers with a similar sound can be a problem. I have read accounts of blind shoot-outs where people listened to music with which they were unfamiliar. I would find it very difficult to make a useful judgment since I need to become a bit familiar with the music. An extended blind listening in one's home would be interesting, but how many people can pull off something like this?

Given a choice between blind and sighted, blind is obviously better, but without sufficient time it won't really answer that many questions.

There is an interesting chapter in Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking by Malcolm Gladwell, in which he examines the limits of blind testing during Pepsi's challenge with Coke. Worth looking at.

 

[no. 5]

Given a choice between blind and sighted, blind is obviously better...

And level matched...

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Even speakers with a similar sound can be a problem. I have read accounts of blind shoot-outs where people listened to music with which they were unfamiliar. I would find it very difficult to make a useful judgment since I need to become a bit familiar with the music. .

Yes, but that familiarity was brought on by one speaker over a long time? How good is that if one is used to one speaker, or two, you are biased to that sound, no? Or at least preference to it?

 

[mziegler]

And level matched...

Indeed.

Yes, but that familiarity was brought on by one speaker over a long time? How good is that if one is used to one speaker, or two, you are biased to that sound, no? Or at least preference to it?

Why stop there? How about the quality of the actual recording? And good luck getting away from your own experience--there is no escape from our preferences, although they are subject to change.