Speaker wires

[philh]

Here's a question that never gets addressed <RLH> LOL

I've read hundreds of messages across several forums, and really like the reasonable approach taken here at audioholics.

I'm a BSME, who most of the time understands when not to simultaniously hold a hot wire and ground source. Too many years of listening to too loud music, flying small planes, etc etc. Equipment is nothing special, the speakers were decent 30 years ago (since replaced woofers), receiver ok. Wires were tinned 16 g (also 30 yrs old).

Now for the fun. I got bored one night and had a bunch of extra CAT5 cable and decided to pull the wires out of their jackets and braid them together (3 lengths of 18ish feet) and solder the separated ends. I was not prepared for the difference in sound. Only have one side completed. The difference between the two speakers was incredible, so much so, I had to switch speakers. Sound stayed with the channel. On one side I would hear a tamborine, on the other side it sounded like a muted symbol. Just for grins I grabbed a short piece of 14g home depot speaker wire left over from wiring the rears and compared it to the 16g and braided cat5. I could talk myself into believing there was an improvement over the 16g, but still didn't approach the CAT5.

This will be the extent of my experimentation, I'm not really interesting in pursuing the infinite detail improvement, and not going to spend any money, but am curious as to what could be driving the difference. Also I don't understand what affect the higher capacitance of using braided cat5 might have on the perceived sound?

Phil

 

[mtrycrafts]

Here's a question that never gets addressed <RLH> LOL

I've read hundreds of messages across several forums, and really like the reasonable approach taken here at audioholics.

I'm a BSME, who most of the time understands when not to simultaniously hold a hot wire and ground source. Too many years of listening to too loud music, flying small planes, etc etc. Equipment is nothing special, the speakers were decent 30 years ago (since replaced woofers), receiver ok. Wires were tinned 16 g (also 30 yrs old).

Now for the fun. I got bored one night and had a bunch of extra CAT5 cable and decided to pull the wires out of their jackets and braid them together (3 lengths of 18ish feet) and solder the separated ends. I was not prepared for the difference in sound. Only have one side completed. The difference between the two speakers was incredible, so much so, I had to switch speakers. Sound stayed with the channel. On one side I would hear a tamborine, on the other side it sounded like a muted symbol. Just for grins I grabbed a short piece of 14g home depot speaker wire left over from wiring the rears and compared it to the 16g and braided cat5. I could talk myself into believing there was an improvement over the 16g, but still didn't approach the CAT5.

This will be the extent of my experimentation, I'm not really interesting in pursuing the infinite detail improvement, and not going to spend any money, but am curious as to what could be driving the difference. Also I don't understand what affect the higher capacitance of using braided cat5 might have on the perceived sound?

Phil

Capacitance in speaker wire affects amp stability in poorly designed amps, such a Naim. They require low capacitance cables.

Inductance and resistance affects frequency response in speaker cables and power loss, volume differences. Now, how much your cat 5 affected any of the two is unknown at this time without measurements but knowing the original cable gauge and how many yoiu wired together to make a single run to the + side will tell us its new gauge equivalence.

Greenhill many years ago did DBT listening between 24ga, 16ga and 12 ga.
24 ga was audibly different. 16ga and 12ga was not differentiated with music.

So, unless you do a bias controlled comparison, level matched on both speakers, we just don't know if there are audible differences.

 

[philh]

Capacitance in speaker wire affects amp stability in poorly designed amps, such a Naim. They require low capacitance cables.

Inductance and resistance affects frequency response in speaker cables and power loss, volume differences. Now, how much your cat 5 affected any of the two is unknown at this time without measurements but knowing the original cable gauge and how many yoiu wired together to make a single run to the + side will tell us its new gauge equivalence.

Greenhill many years ago did DBT listening between 24ga, 16ga and 12 ga.
24 ga was audibly different. 16ga and 12ga was not differentiated with music.

So, unless you do a bias controlled comparison, level matched on both speakers, we just don't know if there are audible differences.

Thank you for the detailed response.

I used three Cat5 cables (24g) removed from their jackets in a simple braid. I do understand the need for bias controlled comparison, and also understand my comparison was a poorly designed experiment, but I also did physically switch the speaker and played the exact same passage on the CD. I was shocked at the difference, while in my mind minor, began to understand how this can become intoxicating chasing the golden sound for the alleged golden ear.

I would love to see speaker wire sound off include a multi user hearing evaluation too. If nothing else this was fun, and I ended up with some kewl looking cables that seem to slightly improve sound. The only reason I even bothered doing this, was I had a bunch of extra cat5 laying around and had to replace one of my speaker wires anyway. Puppy decided it made a fun looking chew toy

 

[flyv65]

Check the cable comparison that Mudcat did with braided CAT5, braided Soundking, and a couple of other cables and types. There is a terrific write up on all the data and explanations.

Bryan...priced CAT5 myself, I did...

 

[mtrycrafts]

Thank you for the detailed response.

I used three Cat5 cables (24g) removed from their jackets in a simple braid. I do understand the need for bias controlled comparison, and also understand my comparison was a poorly designed experiment, but I also did physically switch the speaker and played the exact same passage on the CD. I was shocked at the difference, while in my mind minor, began to understand how this can become intoxicating chasing the golden sound for the alleged golden ear.

I would love to see speaker wire sound off include a multi user hearing evaluation too. If nothing else this was fun, and I ended up with some kewl looking cables that seem to slightly improve sound. The only reason I even bothered doing this, was I had a bunch of extra cat5 laying around and had to replace one of my speaker wires anyway. Puppy decided it made a fun looking chew toy

When you say 3 cat5 cables, do you mean 3 pairs, contents of 3 cat 5 cables with whatever pairs it comes with, or just 3-24ga insulated wires from the cat 5 bundle for + and -? If the latter, that would be 19-20ga. How long?

 

[jaxvon]

Here's the link to the article.

Enjoy!

 

[philh]

When you say 3 cat5 cables, do you mean 3 pairs, contents of 3 cat 5 cables with whatever pairs it comes with, or just 3-24ga insulated wires from the cat 5 bundle for + and -? If the latter, that would be 19-20ga. How long?

(24) 24ga wires. Total content of three cat 5 cables, approximately 18' long.

Removed the 4 pair from each cable and braided the three (4)pair together.

Solids became +, striped became -. Used a dayton banana jack on each end.

 

[philh]

Here's the link to the article.

Enjoy!

I saw that article and really enjoyed it. I attempted a cross between Chris's way over the top time consuming complicated mess, somewhat limiting amount of cat5, and the braiding done here. Essentially made up my own design along the way. I was not prepared for the audible difference. As I said in the original note, even switched speakers, and tried a piece of 14g HD speaker wire, and the sound improvement stayed with the CAT5. Years ago I would have been chasing the holy sound grail, but now have gotten to the point of, it's sounds nice.

 

[mtrycrafts]

(24) 24ga wires. Total content of three cat 5 cables, approximately 18' long.

Removed the 4 pair from each cable and braided the three (4)pair together.

Solids became +, striped became -. Used a dayton banana jack on each end.

OK. This would be interesting to do a DBT with as 10ga vs 16 ga has not been differentiated before, unless there was a level difference which is highly unlikely to have been sufficient to breach threshold levels. Same for the frequency response differences that are already low enough with the 16ga to be nill even if this went to 0 deviation to 20kHz. Maybe one day this experiment can be repeated DBT

 

[philh]

OK. This would be interesting to do a DBT with as 10ga vs 16 ga has not been differentiated before, unless there was a level difference which is highly unlikely to have been sufficient to breach threshold levels. Same for the frequency response differences that are already low enough with the 16ga to be nill even if this went to 0 deviation to 20kHz. Maybe one day this experiment can be repeated DBT

I don't have anything anywhere near "golden" ears. Set up isn't anything special. The whole Cat5 experiment was done mostly because I was bored with my house rebuilding project and needed a break. Didn't have any money invested to sway my ears. To be honest, Just want a system that sounds decent. But, I was surprised to hear the difference on the high end. Just a song that happened to be playing listened to on one side what sounded like a muted cymbal, on the other side it was clearly a tambourine. I even switched speakers and the sound differential stayed with the wire.

Talked to somebody at Madisound as I try and figure out if I'm going to replace or upgrade my current speakers, and asked the question about the braided Cat5. Their take was the braiding helps eliminate cross talk between +/- with greater improvement on high frequencies.

I loved the speaker run off, it presented some great information. DBS listener results would have added to the presentation. I'm sure somebody here has nothing better to do LOL!

Now all I need to do is decide if I'm replacing my 30 yo speakers or buying new ones. Too damn cheap for my own good