speaker recommendation for a challenging space

N

nu-bee

Audiophyte
hi forumers, we are renovating a 17' wide x 51' long room with 14' high walls and a ceiling sloping up to 20' in the middle. there are half a dozen timber 'trusses' supporting the roof and very few windows save for 6 dormers and glass doors at each end so it's quite church-like. it contains the living, dining and kitchen areas (no walls) and the walls are soft, natural plaster.

so...i'd like to have really good sound that REALLY fills the space and would like the advice of the experts. as there is little directionality in the furniture location and no listening locations (save for standing at the kitchen sink or on the couch in front of the fireplace) it needs to bathe the room, if that's possible.

there may be a TV in the space but we're not looking for home theater in this location.

thinking $10-$15K for speakers?

we listen to a huge range of music and will likely run mostly MP3, Pandora and Tidal streaming with some old-school CD and vinyl action so there'll need to be a fair amount of fidelity and bass capability. i was in a big greenhouse/restaurant recently and they had speakers by martin audio mounted parallel to the length of the room in the trusses at the top of the walls.

first looking for speaker suggestions but open to advice on how to power all of this and any other thoughts you have.

much appreciated!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
hi forumers, we are renovating a 17' wide x 51' long room with 14' high walls and a ceiling sloping up to 20' in the middle. there are half a dozen timber 'trusses' supporting the roof and very few windows save for 6 dormers and glass doors at each end so it's quite church-like. it contains the living, dining and kitchen areas (no walls) and the walls are soft, natural plaster.

so...i'd like to have really good sound that REALLY fills the space and would like the advice of the experts. as there is little directionality in the furniture location and no listening locations (save for standing at the kitchen sink or on the couch in front of the fireplace) it needs to bathe the room, if that's possible.

there may be a TV in the space but we're not looking for home theater in this location.

thinking $10-$15K for speakers?

we listen to a huge range of music and will likely run mostly MP3, Pandora and Tidal streaming with some old-school CD and vinyl action so there'll need to be a fair amount of fidelity and bass capability. i was in a big greenhouse/restaurant recently and they had speakers by martin audio mounted parallel to the length of the room in the trusses at the top of the walls.

first looking for speaker suggestions but open to advice on how to power all of this and any other thoughts you have.

much appreciated!
There is no domestic gear that I know of that will do that. You are going to need pro gear.

Your budget is a bit low.

The best speaker to do what you want is the JBL M2 reference monitor. That would give you the spl you need. However you are going to have to send some cash on acoustic treatments I suspect.


Price is just under $20,000 per pair.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I think there are some good choices that fall under the stated budget. One speaker I would look at is the Pi Four with upgraded drivers. It is a very powerful speaker with a reasonable frequency response and nicely uniform off-axis response. It also has a very benign impedance load and would be easy to amplify. Also very affordable at maybe a bit over $1.5k each, but it is a speaker you would want to use with subwoofers. Another good choice would be some Seaton Sound Catalysts, at about $4k each, and they are self-powered, so external amplification is not needed. Another great choice would be JTR speakers, and I think any of those speakers with bass drivers in the 12" to 15" range will suffice, although the non-floorstanding speakers will be needing subwoofers. For subwoofers, I would be looking at JTR subs or Deep Sea Sound subs.

Another possibility to saturate that area in sound is get a bunch of speakers and line the room with them, like you described with that greenhouse, but you would lose any sense of soundstage with that type of setup. However, if you are fine with a more ambient sound rather than a well defined soundstage, you could do that under-budget rather easily.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
There is no domestic gear that I know of that will do that. You are going to need pro gear.

Your budget is a bit low.

The best speaker to do what you want is the JBL M2 reference monitor. That would give you the spl you need. However you are going to have to send some cash on acoustic treatments I suspect.


Price is just under $20,000 per pair.
That tech is now finally available in more realistically priced (and sized) speakers: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/recording-broadcast/7-series#.WMP3jxiZNE4

I've heard the M2's with zero effort put in to the setup. Their ability to sound exactly the same all over the room (with the exception of bass response) is what you're paying for. I would venture that the 7 series JBL speakers will offer most of that performance, and you will just need to properly setup subwoofers to balance the seat to seat bass response.
 
N

nu-bee

Audiophyte
Awesome. Many thanks for the suggestions! I'll check out all the info and links.

I suppose we are good with more of an 'ambient' solution and not a 'soundstage' solution as it's more like a loft with multiple activities taking place in the space. Thus 6-8 speakers hanging and angled down from the timber trusses with a subwoofer on the floor may be the best way to go about this.(?)

Any receiver/amp advice?

greg
 
ATLAudio

ATLAudio

Senior Audioholic
At low to moderate volumes, the JBL M2/4367, and Klipshorns have a very ambient projection by design.
 
N

nu-bee

Audiophyte
if we used 6 speakers (three along the length of the room on each side) would we set them up LRL on one side and RLR on the opposite?
 
N

nu-bee

Audiophyte
All good suggestions but, if we went with the multi-pair concept, our budget would have to be far more robust to have 6 of the JBL 4367s. And, would it be a waste of their finer sonic qualities if we did use them in this manner?

For the 6 speaker solution, I'll have to stick to about $2500 a piece.
 
ATLAudio

ATLAudio

Senior Audioholic
Yeah, if you are wanting a ceiling array of speakers or strictly ambiance type of set up then the M2/4367 wouldn't be the right approach. Personally, I wouldn't invest $2500 per speaker for this type of set up, you simply don't have to.

Maybe some bipoles (surround speakers) along the wall would do the trick? These are about 300-500$ a piece usually. Get a couple of subs for the corners, and you're done
 
N

nu-bee

Audiophyte
Yeah, if you are wanting a ceiling array of speakers or strictly ambiance type of set up then the M2/4367 wouldn't be the right approach. Personally, I wouldn't invest $2500 per speaker for this type of set up, you simply don't have to.

Maybe some bipoles (surround speakers) along the wall would do the trick? These are about 300-500$ a piece usually. Get a couple of subs for the corners, and you're done
yeah, if i don't have to invest $2500/speaker I certainly won't! any suggestions on bipoles/dual channel speakers?
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I know this is a dumb question, but since you are already renovating (considering the cost of) the space, and it's only 17' wide to begin with per the length, why keep it as such? I get the whole 'open' floor plan fad, sort of, and it makes a great stage for HGTV, but isn't there something creative that an architect could come up with in this situation instead? Especially one who knows about acoustics?

When someone asks about filling a space with quality sound, that being a priority, I have to imagine something a bit more creative with regard to compromises, instead of an all out acoustic repair situation after the fact. Great sound quality adds a heck of a lot more quality to life than any open floor aesthetic could ever hope to achieve.
 
tyhjaarpa

tyhjaarpa

Audioholic Field Marshall
All good suggestions but, if we went with the multi-pair concept, our budget would have to be far more robust to have 6 of the JBL 4367s. And, would it be a waste of their finer sonic qualities if we did use them in this manner?

For the 6 speaker solution, I'll have to stick to about $2500 a piece.
I would take a look on Genelec monitors in your situation. I have heard some solutions in similar spaces you have and they have sounded really good. But I think they had pro installer to do the installation and setup.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
if we used 6 speakers (three along the length of the room on each side) would we set them up LRL on one side and RLR on the opposite?
Unfortunately you are new to this and don't realize what a monumental challenge this represents. Your room dimension are not a domestic space.

Now speakers can do well in small spaces, but they do poorly in large ones unless you poor lots of resources at the problem.

You stated you want high quality room filling sound. The only way you can do that is with a very high quality and powerful stereo pair that can generate high sound pressure levels.

Now there are probably no more than three members here, if that who have experience in this type of challenge. I have had some experience and have designed and built high definition systems for large spaces.

Now lets get your multiple speaker idea out of the way first. This will not give you high quality room filling sound. The reason is that sound travels pretty slowly. Distributed systems can work well for speech and background music. However the volume of each speaker has to be low, so that everyone only gets almost all the sound from one speaker. If they hear all of them then the time delays makes everything garbled and very low quality. You can NOT fulfill your aim with this approach. In addition the sound must be mono and not stereo.

The next approach is the central cluster. This can work well and give good clarity but again the sound is mono.

The only way to get what your aim states is with a pair of expensive powerful pro speakers, that have an exemplary dispersion pattern, a very smooth frequency response, and very low Q bass tuning. If the bass is at all resonant you are dead for quality. The usual method is to use a large bass driver, and a good sectoral horn actively biamped. There is no place for passive crossovers to fulfill your stated criteria.

My approach, and this means a custom design and build, is to use a low Qts 15" drivers in enormous back loaded horns with 3' horns mouths and use a line source with at least 8 drivers in vertical line above and biamp it with electronic crossover between 400 and 500 Hz. The reason being that until recently the top end horns have been highly problematic. The speakers I specked for you have a specification that would I think obviate the need for a custom line array.

In Engalnd close friends of my wife's sister live in a very old medieval church deep in the Malvern Hills. He is heir to the Bulmer Cider fortune. This guy sold out the company for a fortune. He has degrees in physics. He is highly intelligent but very eccentric in a unique English kind of way. I just love this man's company. He has converted the old bell tower into an astronomical observatory. He makes in own telescopes, including grinding and polishing his own lenses.

Anyhow the kitchen is where the alter was, and the bedrooms in the choir balcony. It is relatively small for a church. However attempts to get good sound in the living area have alluded him and he has now abandoned it. He is a very wealthy man but unwilling to commit the resources required to solve the challenge. He has put a decent system in what I think was a small side chapel at ease.

So I think you have to rethink your goals and see if you can get what you want within a budget you can afford.

I strongly recommend you seriously consider Mr Boat's suggestion. The other alternative is to construct a low volume background music system.

Lastly if you do want to go for a high quality system you will need to budget for acoustic treatment, or you will waste your money. From the description of the ceiling hanging sound absorbers will likely be required, like the BBC used in the RAH.



Those you might not like the look of in your home.
 
N

nu-bee

Audiophyte
Unfortunately you are new to this and don't realize what a monumental challenge this represents. Your room dimension are not a domestic space.

Now speakers can do well in small spaces, but they do poorly in large ones unless you poor lots of resources at the problem.

You stated you want high quality room filling sound. The only way you can do that is with a very high quality and powerful stereo pair that can generate high sound pressure levels.

Now there are probably no more than three members here, if that who have experience in this type of challenge. I have had some experience and have designed and built high definition systems for large spaces.

Now lets get your multiple speaker idea out of the way first. This will not give you high quality room filling sound. The reason is that sound travels pretty slowly. Distributed systems can work well for speech and background music. However the volume of each speaker has to be low, so that everyone only gets almost all the sound from one speaker. If they hear all of them then the time delays makes everything garbled and very low quality. You can NOT fulfill your aim with this approach. In addition the sound must be mono and not stereo.

The next approach is the central cluster. This can work well and give good clarity but again the sound is mono.

The only way to get what your aim states is with a pair of expensive powerful pro speakers, that have an exemplary dispersion pattern, a very smooth frequency response, and very low Q bass tuning. If the bass is at all resonant you are dead for quality. The usual method is to use a large bass driver, and a good sectoral horn actively biamped. There is no place for passive crossovers to fulfill your stated criteria.

My approach, and this means a custom design and build, is to use a low Qts 15" drivers in enormous back loaded horns with 3' horns mouths and use a line source with at least 8 drivers in vertical line above and biamp it with electronic crossover between 400 and 500 Hz. The reason being that until recently the top end horns have been highly problematic. The speakers I specked for you have a specification that would I think obviate the need for a custom line array.

In Engalnd close friends of my wife's sister live in a very old medieval church deep in the Malvern Hills. He is heir to the Bulmer Cider fortune. This guy sold out the company for a fortune. He has degrees in physics. He is highly intelligent but very eccentric in a unique English kind of way. I just love this man's company. He has converted the old bell tower into an astronomical observatory. He makes in own telescopes, including grinding and polishing his own lenses.

Anyhow the kitchen is where the alter was, and the bedrooms in the choir balcony. It is relatively small for a church. However attempts to get good sound in the living area have alluded him and he has now abandoned it. He is a very wealthy man but unwilling to commit the resources required to solve the challenge. He has put a decent system in what I think was a small side chapel at ease.

So I think you have to rethink your goals and see if you can get what you want within a budget you can afford.

I strongly recommend you seriously consider Mr Boat's suggestion. The other alternative is to construct a low volume background music system.

Lastly if you do want to go for a high quality system you will need to budget for acoustic treatment, or you will waste your money. From the description of the ceiling hanging sound absorbers will likely be required, like the BBC used in the RAH.



Those you might not like the look of in your home.
Thanks so much for the suggestions. Are those custom speakers something you could build?

I'll have to review everything and evaluate the situation. It's not reasonable to subdivide the space as there are large timber trusses and the space is quite well proportioned for its 20' height. We will have a home theater in another part of the house and may have to accept that that's where the great sound will be. I'll deal with that next. Thanks again.
 

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