Speaker Rankings....Please comment

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deedubb

Full Audioholic
IMO, Consumer Reports audio recommendations are pure garbage. I'd listen to them if you want mediocre speakers. If you want something better than that, then you're in the right place (internet AV forums). The most useful advice...audition as many speakers as you can and get what you like the most.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Wait a minute...Audioholics don't read Consumer Reports!

Who's reading Consumer Reports here?:D
 
no. 5

no. 5

Audioholic Field Marshall
They may not be the last word on any given product that they test, but they _do_ know what they're doing.
They can know what they are doing (or know something about a subject), but still not have enough insight to give a meaningful recommendation.

You know that Consumer Reports is not the last word, but what about the rest of CR's considerable subscription base? There is a whole lot more to a speakers objective performance than just a measurement of frequency response.
Speaking of which, what resolution is the measure? Is it only on axis? Is it anechoic or quasi-anechoic?

If Consumer Reports is rating speakers for the public, shouldn't they be doing it by taking advantage of the most current knowledge in the field of psychoacoustic perception, and loudspeaker measurement? Not that they need to expound on how bias will likely cause speaker X to sound "better", or how speaker Y has a highly resonant cabinet.
 
S

sajohnson

Audiophyte
I haven't really followed CR in over 15 years. I think they mean well, but they tend to not clarify a few things. I think they should add something along the lines of "for under $X" or "for readily available at BB/CC." There seems to be that type of quantitative statement to these reports missing that impeeds upon the credibility of their results to those with a little more knowlege.

Jack
I agree -- they could point out that there are other options if a person is willing to spend more, shop online, or visit 'audio salons' (some of which are 'appointment only').

Actually, they often do say make comments like that, but they may be buried in the text -- and most people skip straight to the ratings.
 
S

sajohnson

Audiophyte
They can know what they are doing (or know something about a subject), but still not have enough insight to give a meaningful recommendation.

You know that Consumer Reports is not the last word, but what about the rest of CR's considerable subscription base? There is a whole lot more to a speakers objective performance than just a measurement of frequency response.
Speaking of which, what resolution is the measure? Is it only on axis? Is it anechoic or quasi-anechoic?

If Consumer Reports is rating speakers for the public, shouldn't they be doing it by taking advantage of the most current knowledge in the field of psychoacoustic perception, and loudspeaker measurement? Not that they need to expound on how bias will likely cause speaker X to sound "better", or how speaker Y has a highly resonant cabinet.
I'm almost 47 years old and have been into audio since I was in junior high, so I understand fully what you are saying. I wouldn't look to CR to be the ultimate authority on anything, but they are at the very least _one_ good source of information -- even if it is not complete, it is almost always accurate. Their speaker testing could obviously be more complete.

Although I agree that they could do a lot more with their testing, they have limited resources and are writing for the mass market. If they were to attempt to buy and test a variety of speakers (or TVs, or bikes, or cars) from every mfr in the world, they'd be stuck doing that until the end of time. They try to get a representative sample from mfrs and retailers that _most_ people (granted, maybe not many of us here) would buy from, do some basic tests, and get the report out before the mfrs change their model lines. Remember that regardless of what they are reviewing _most_ of their subscribers are probably not way into it. So, not only do they not have the time,money, staff, and/or facilities to do in-depth testing on every product they look at -- most people wouldn't want to wade through all of the nitty-gritty details anyway. They just want to know which battery to buy for their car or whatever, not the details of the electro-chemical reaction and the type of plastic used in the case, etc.

If a person is really into _anything_ -- golf, cooking, cars, hiking, mountain biking, A/V gear, photography, you name it -- they will almost certainly already know most if not all of what CR has to say about the subject and related equipment. That's to be expected. I happen to be into cars and know a little bit about them. I don't get upset when CR prints some basic advice for people just because I'm familiar with it -- I just skip over it. Likewise with their reports about A/V gear. I'm an electronics tech so there's not much I will read in CR about what specs mean or how to hook up gear that I don't already know, but I realize it's useful to the majority of subscribers. Their testing is still very interesting to me because I know it is accurate and I can trust it. It may be somewhat limited in scope and I may wish they were more comprehensive sometimes, but I'd rather have a limited amount of accurate info and test results than none at all.

I continue to subscribe -- both online and the magazine -- because there are a lot of products/services that I _don't_ know very much about and CR continues to be very helpful.

If I could only subscribe to one magazine, it would be CR. They've saved me an incredible amount of time and money over the years. I look at it like this -- it is almost guaranteed that in the course of a year a person will save far more in time and money than the subscription costs. It is very common for the top-rated products to be hundreds of dollars less than lower rated ones. CR also saves people the hassle of buying an inferior product and having to deal with returns, repairs, warranty claims etc. It's so nice to be able to read through a report and in a few minutes to an hour or two know what to buy. It saves hours of phone calls, Internet research, wading through marketing hype, etc. They point out financial traps and rip-offs to watch out for. The list of benefits goes on and on...

Suffice it to say that subscribing to CR is a no-brainer. Those of us who are into audio (or whatever else) can simply ignore what we feel is irrelevant to us.

In this particular case, I think their testing is useful because it allows us to compare their results with the mfrs' and also, while it's true that some people don't like an accurate speaker, I would certainly count accuracy as a positive thing -- all else being equal. It's a good bit of info to have -- one piece of the picture anyway.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
A flat speaker doesn't mean you will get flat sound when you put it in your room. A properly (and extreme) treated room would probably have better results with flatter response speakers. Also listening to properly recorded and mastered music will do the flatter response speakers more justice, and bringing you the closest to correct response level fromt the original recording. Of course there are many other factors I don't fully understand, such as on/off axis response and among many other factors.:D
 
S

sajohnson

Audiophyte
A flat speaker doesn't mean you will get flat sound when you put it in your room. A properly (and extreme) treated room would probably have better results with flatter response speakers. Also listening to properly recorded and mastered music will do the flatter response speakers more justice, and bringing you the closest to correct response level fromt the original recording. Of course there are many other factors I don't fully understand, such as on/off axis response and among many other factors.:D
Good post Seth, I agree.

We know that the room has a huge effect on the sound from a speaker. As you say, why not start with a speaker that has a flat, accurate response? That is after all, the ideal.

Recordings vary tremendously, but again, why not use an accurate speaker and concentrate on EQ'ing the music if necessary?

Of course, if a person happens to like a particular speaker and nothing else will do, then by all means -- get that speaker and ignore the frequency response curve. We all want what sounds best to us -- in our room, with music that we like. If that happens to be one of the more accurate speakers then that's a good thing.

If CR can help with that, great. CR is mass market so they tend to not test the most expensive equipment. Chances are, a person who is a serious audiophile won't find much to like. Still, I wouldn't discount a speaker just because it is inexpensive, or isn't an 'audiophile' brand.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Recordings vary tremendously, but again, why not use an accurate speaker and concentrate on EQ'ing the music if necessary?
If you wanted to EQ your music (assuming the mix was so bad you had to) you might as well remaster it yourself (time consuming).:D
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
Who bumped this thread? Here read this then lock it.

Cliffnote: CONSUMER REPORTS SUCKS.

SheepStar
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
First of all, I want to say that this is an excellent post -- full of truth and insight.

Second, I have been a CR subscriber for about 20 years. They may not be the last word on any given product that they test, but they _do_ know what they're doing. It's kind of funny to read posts where people say, "Oh, they're good at testing cars but not speakers" because over on nasioc.com (a Subaru forum) the guys say, "Oh, they may be good at testing TVs/toasters/etc, but they don't know anything about cars". The fact is, CR has a staff of highly educated professionals doing their research and testing. If they feel they don't have the proper test equipment or expertise, they'll find outside help. All they do is report the facts. Sometimes people don't like what they hear and try to 'shoot the messenger', but that never changes the truth.

In any case, I found this thread because I am looking for info about the Boston CR75 and any other two-way speakers with 6.5" drivers.

I would like to use three (3) identical speakers fro L/C/R and am concentrating on 6.5" two-ways because Tom Nousaine has said that in all his years of testing they are (generally) the best performing design when used with a sub.

So far, I've listened to the B&W 685, av123.com Rocket RS250MkII, and Axiom M3 v2 and I prefer the Rockets.

I'm considering auditioning the KEF iQ3s as well.

Any suggestions appreciated, thank you!

Thank you for your remarks. It is interesting that there are so many people who bash CR in this thread without giving any reason for their hatred.

I personally use three identical Aurum Cantus Leisure 2SE (original U.S. version) with 5 1/4" woofers across the front. (I also use these same speakers for all of the rear/surround channels). The current U.S. version is:

http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/products/Leisure2SE.htm

The frequency response is 50 Hz - 40k Hz, +/- 3 dB. The listing that they give at the web site is with - 6 dB.

If you can find a dealer near you, I recommend auditioning them. You can sometimes get them on eBay for much less than retail, but beware, as there are many who sell there who sell inferior versions of this speaker while claiming it is the superior U.S. version. There have been at least 4 versions of this speaker released, and it matters which version you get, though all are good, there are significant differences. For example, the "International" version of the speaker has a frequency response of 55 Hz - 40k Hz +/- 3 dB, and a hump in the bass that can give a slightly "boomy" quality with some music. See:

http://www.aurumcantus.com/aurumcantu-loudspeaker/loudspeaker_leisure2semkii.htm

You can read how to tell the difference between some of the versions at:

http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/products/US_vs_CH.htm

The U.S. versions (both original and current "Signature" version) have a flared port on the rear; the others have a straight port. The U.S. versions both have no red Chinese lettering on the back on the aluminum name plate, and both U.S. versions say that they were jointly developed by Kellsie Audio&Video Designs on the rear plate; the "Signature" version has the word "Signature" on the rear plate.

Unfortunately, I have not auditioned speakers that have a retail price near what you are looking at, so I cannot give you much advice in that direction. Just listen to as many different models as you can stand, and pick what you like best.
 
Shadow_Ferret

Shadow_Ferret

Audioholic Chief
Several years ago CR did a comparison of beers.

Old Milwaukee was the winner.

Enough said.
 
S

sajohnson

Audiophyte
If you wanted to EQ your music (assuming the mix was so bad you had to) you might as well remaster it yourself (time consuming).:D
I'm not sure I follow. Ideally -- perfect speakers, room, recording quality, etc -- music would require no EQ. Unfortunately, as we all know, nothing is perfect. Music that was recorded live, especially older recordings, often need some 'help'. Even older studio recordings can be relatively poor quality.

As I said above, if a person likes the sound of a particular speaker -- ignore the specs and buy it. It could be that although it doesn't have a flat response it works well in their room, with their ears. Whatever -- no big deal.

All else being equal though, it is preferable to have speakers, amps, and other gear that have perfectly flat response (again, unless a person happens to know that a particular speaker just happens to sound good in a certain room).
 
S

sajohnson

Audiophyte
Thank you for your remarks. It is interesting that there are so many people who bash CR in this thread without giving any reason for their hatred.

I personally use three identical Aurum Cantus Leisure 2SE (original U.S. version) with 5 1/4" woofers across the front. (I also use these same speakers for all of the rear/surround channels). The current U.S. version is:

http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/products/Leisure2SE.htm

The frequency response is 50 Hz - 40k Hz, +/- 3 dB. The listing that they give at the web site is with - 6 dB.

If you can find a dealer near you, I recommend auditioning them. You can sometimes get them on eBay for much less than retail, but beware, as there are many who sell there who sell inferior versions of this speaker while claiming it is the superior U.S. version. There have been at least 4 versions of this speaker released, and it matters which version you get, though all are good, there are significant differences. For example, the "International" version of the speaker has a frequency response of 55 Hz - 40k Hz +/- 3 dB, and a hump in the bass that can give a slightly "boomy" quality with some music. See:

http://www.aurumcantus.com/aurumcantu-loudspeaker/loudspeaker_leisure2semkii.htm

You can read how to tell the difference between some of the versions at:

http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/products/US_vs_CH.htm

The U.S. versions (both original and current "Signature" version) have a flared port on the rear; the others have a straight port. The U.S. versions both have no red Chinese lettering on the back on the aluminum name plate, and both U.S. versions say that they were jointly developed by Kellsie Audio&Video Designs on the rear plate; the "Signature" version has the word "Signature" on the rear plate.

Unfortunately, I have not auditioned speakers that have a retail price near what you are looking at, so I cannot give you much advice in that direction. Just listen to as many different models as you can stand, and pick what you like best.
Thanks for the advice. Those are _beautiful_ speakers. Unfortunately, they're just way out of my price range. Even used they'd probably be too much and I'd be afraid of getting burned after what you said about there being so many different models.
 
T

tom67

Full Audioholic
Consumer Reports

The Sharper Image, America's now bankrupt junk store took on CR with regard to their basically useless air purifiers....Sharper Image filed the suit and CR won it....so they have a track record of being right when challanged. As we all know, there is a lot of hot purified air blowing in the audio world....might do us some good to reconsider some of the lower cost brands that have some merit..
 
Shadow_Ferret

Shadow_Ferret

Audioholic Chief
The Sharper Image, America's now bankrupt junk store took on CR with regard to their basically useless air purifiers....Sharper Image filed the suit and CR won it....so they have a track record of being right when challanged. As we all know, there is a lot of hot purified air blowing in the audio world....might do us some good to reconsider some of the lower cost brands that have some merit..
I have a lot of respect for CR when it comes to most products. If I'm looking for a washer or a dryer, or a toaster, or microwave, or a car, used or otherwise, televisions, cameras, and so on and so forth. I have no problem with their methodology and consider their opinions quite valid.

In this instance, ok, if all I care about is speaker accuracy, then I'd rush right out and buy the BIC America Venturis. They are on my list, however, I think speakers are also about your ears, and listening to music is a very personal experience. A group of us could all sit down and listen to those BIC America Venturis and I'll bet every one of us will have a different opinion.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Unless CR has radically changed it's speaker testing methodology and how it applies measurements towards perceptual importance within the last year(the lat time I had read one their speaker review comparison articles), then they do not sufficiently apply modern perceptual research concerning loudspeaker measurements and correlation to listener preferences and room interactions to their comparisons.

-Chris
 

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