Speaker Purchasing

[Soccerkid830]

Hi all,

I'm looking for some opinions that you guys may have in regards to a few different speaker selections. I'm looking to upgrade my front three.

I was thinking of a few different selections:

The Emotiva towers and center that are currently on sale:

http://emotiva.com/ert83.shtm
http://emotiva.com/erm63.shtm

The Mirage OMD towers and center. I have the OMD-5's in rosewood as rears and I do like the sound they produce.

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/548999100/mirage-omd-c2-rosewood
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/details/542999895/mirage-omd-28-rosewood

Paradigm Studios also caught my eye. I really like the styling but the closest retailer to me is a few hours away.

http://paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/floorstanding/paradigm-reference/studio-series/studio-100
http://paradigm.com/index.php?option=com_mtree&task=viewlink&link_id=142&Itemid=2

Do any of you have any experience with these in specific? Or possibly any other recommendations in the same price range of ~$2-3k

 

[Ken Shabby]

I don't have any experience with any of the others, but I would highly recommend the Paradigm's. My father has a 7.1 setup of the Studio series, and has the Studio 100's (not sure which center he has). They are absolutely phenomenal. Beautiful crisp highs, accurate mids, and tight realistic bass. The only thing I have heard better are the Signature series, but they're ridiculously expensive! The center is also outstanding, great sound and imaging.

I do, however, find it hard to give advice to people on speakers, as everyone likes something a little different. Let your ears do the deciding!

 

[bikdav]

I'd go with the Paradigms since they are readily available to you _ no ordering and shipping hassles. Also, any of the Paradigms that I've heard have not been disappointing.

 

[Lulimet]

Paradigm and never look back.
Easy choice really.

 

[Soccerkid830]

Auditioned Studio 100s with CC590

I listened to some 100's with the 590 as a center today and they sounded absolutely amazing, compared to what I was running anyway (Sony SS-F6000's with the CN5000 ).

The gentlemen I worked with had given me a price of ~$4500 for the three speakers and I was able to talk him down to $3950 if I paid in cash. Is that a fairly good price, or were they marked way up to start? I'm really thinkin of pulling the trigger on these.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would get the KEF Q900 for $570 each:

http://www.accessories4less.com/index.php?page=search&search_query=KEF+Q900

Home Theater Magazine and Stereophile have reviewed them.

John Atkinson said the Q900 has superb measurements.

Kal Rubinson said the Q900 is the best he's seen in the $2K/pr range.

Brand new is $800 each from Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=KEF+Q900&x=0&y=0

Can you accomodate 3 towers for the front LCR?

I think Amazon can sell you a single Q900 speaker.

 

[Soccerkid830]

There's no way I could fit three towers in the front, unless I laid the center on its side.

I've never heard the KEF's in person but I have read a few different things about those Q900's. How red is their cherry finish? I have those Mirage OMD-5's in rosewood that I'd like to stay relatively similar to in color as I'll still be using those as rears.

So if I went this route, I'd get the Q900's with the Q600C for about $1600 through A4L. Leaving some change for a new subwoofer...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So if I went this route, I'd get the Q900's with the Q600C for about $1600 through A4L. Leaving some change for a new subwoofer...

That would work.

 

[GranteedEV]

There's no way I could fit three towers in the front, unless I laid the center on its side.

I've never heard the KEF's in person but I have read a few different things about those Q900's. How red is their cherry finish? I have those Mirage OMD-5's in rosewood that I'd like to stay relatively similar to in color as I'll still be using those as rears.

So if I went this route, I'd get the Q900's with the Q600C for about $1600 through A4L. Leaving some change for a new subwoofer...

Sounds better than the Paradigms or Emotivas.


The OMD 28s look really nice too. They will be rather placement sensitive however, so you will need to get them well away from walls and probably closer to nearfield IE halfway into the room if you want accurate tonality, especially on brass. Omnis can sound really good if you have the accomodations for them.

 

[Soccerkid830]

Yeah, I really like the rosewood Mirages but I can't find very many reviews on them. As I said, I already have the OMD-5's and like them a lot. The OMD-28's are $100 off for the next week or so too. Bringing the total of these down to $3400 for Left/Center/Right with the OMD-C2 as the center. This is over double the price of those KEF's though, which I haven't personally heard.

 

[96cobra10101]

Just got the Emo 8.3 pair and a 6.3 along with 2 pair of ERD's. They replaced my Klipsch F3 towers and center. Can't speak for the other brands but they sound much nicer than my Klipsch. The F3's are way harsh compared to the 8.3's. The Emo's are very warm and don't have any of the "brassiness" the Klipsch had. They thump pretty well so I have had my subs turned all the way down right just enjoying them in stereo. I got them on sale last week so for the money I think I hit a home run.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, I really like the rosewood Mirages but I can't find very many reviews on them. As I said, I already have the OMD-5's and like them a lot. The OMD-28's are $100 off for the next week or so too. Bringing the total of these down to $3400 for Left/Center/Right with the OMD-C2 as the center. This is over double the price of those KEF's though, which I haven't personally heard.

Double the price, and HALF the performance!!!

Here is the HTM review of the OMD-28:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/mirage-omd-28-surround-speaker-system-measurements

IMO, OMD = OMG because the measurements look like total crap!

$$ does not always equal quality. Look at the $50K + Vienna Acoustic Klimt speakers! Their measurements are not anywhere near as good as the KEF Q900s.

 

[Soccerkid830]

Double the price, and HALF the performance!!!

Here is the HTM review of the OMD-28:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/mirage-omd-28-surround-speaker-system-measurements

IMO, OMD = OMG because the measurements look like total crap!

$$ does not always equal quality. Look at the $50K + Vienna Acoustic Klimt speakers! Their measurements are not anywhere near as good as the KEF Q900s.

I read through that article and it seems that even though the responses weren't all that great, the reviewer did say they sounded better than you'd think based on the measurements alone. I'm not trying to support either way, just throwing that out there.

I'm going to go to a couple dealers today/tomorrow, however you wanna look at it, to check out the OMD-28's along with the KEF Q900's. I found some dealers that actually have them so we'll see how it goes!

 

[GranteedEV]

IMO, OMD = OMG because the measurements look like total crap!:eek

The thing to bear in mind is the power response. An omni will have a much flatter power response than a box speaker, so in order to get it to sound balanced (tapering power response as frequency rises) in a real room, they may have intentionally tapered the frequency response.

In an absorptive room, that speaker would sound like crap. But in a reflective room near walls it might sound balanced.

Tough to say without hearing it, but the FR didn't surprise me. With that said

the reviewer did say they sounded better than you'd think based on the measurements alone

I've never read a review of a speaker with bad measurements where they DON'T say this.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The thing to bear in mind is the power response. An omni will have a much flatter power response than a box speaker, so in order to get it to sound balanced (tapering power response as frequency rises) in a real room, they may have intentionally tapered the frequency response.

In an absorptive room, that speaker would sound like crap. But in a reflective room near walls it might sound balanced.

I thought we want a speaker to have both a flat anechoic frequency (on & off-axis) response + flat power response?

The Orion has a flat Freq Resp + flat Power Resp. But because it's a dipole, instead of omnipole, the real room reflections do not affect it's FR significantly and thus do not affect it's sound quality significantly?

The omnipoles will have a flatter PowResp. But room reflections + PowResp may cause a flat anechoic FR to increase in the room by 6-10dB?

So then for Omnipoles, the only thing you can do is listen with your ears, and forget about FR & polar response altogether?

I'll stick with more predictable speakers like monopole and dipoles then.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I read through that article and it seems that even though the responses weren't all that great, the reviewer did say they sounded better than you'd think based on the measurements alone. I'm not trying to support either way, just throwing that out there.

I'm going to go to a couple dealers today/tomorrow, however you wanna look at it, to check out the OMD-28's along with the KEF Q900's. I found some dealers that actually have them so we'll see how it goes!

I think the important thing in the end is how the speakers actually sound to you.

As far as those reviewers' opinions, well, they are influenced by advertisements and such.

Take a look at the Zu Audio speakers on Stereophile. They have the absolute worst measurements I have ever seen in all phases - cabinet resonance, on-axis FR, polar response, etc. Yet, somehow the reviewer managed to not dog these speakers by careful use of words.

Some people say the Zu speakers sound great, even though they are box monopole speakers, so they should not have any excuses like the omnipoles.

The omnipole speakers remind of the term "non-applicable". You can't really test or fault their FR?

 

[GranteedEV]

I thought we want a speaker to have both a flat anechoic frequency (on & off-axis) response + flat power response?

Flat power response, would imply that no matter where you measure it in a 360 degree sphere, the frequency response averages out to flat.

Most speakers including the Salons, KEFs, and Orions, have smoothly tapering power response, not flat. The main goal in power response, is not to have a big "bloom" in the crossover region from a highly directive midrange crossing to an omni tweeter etc.

The Orion has a flat Freq Resp + flat Power Resp. But because it's a dipole, instead of omnipole, the real room reflections do not affect it's FR significantly and thus do not affect it's sound quality significantly?

Does the orion havve flat frequency and power response?

To quote SL:

Experiences with equalizing an initially flat on-axis response to obtain the realistic sounding ORION-3.2 have convinced me that 'flat' is not correct for a stereo system. Here we must create believable phantom sources from two real sources at +/-30 degree angle to the listener, at the 'sweet spot', in the room. Nor is the BBC dip the answer. Instead, the response must be flat above 100 Hz and then gradually drop to a lower level at high frequencies. There are general physical and psychoacoustic requirements for such a response, which I will explain at a later time. A specific on-axis frequency response curve is usually the secret behind a good sounding loudspeaker. The marketing department likes to label this curve 'flat'.
For Stereo, neither the two monitor loudspeakers in the recording studio, nor the playback loudspeakers in the home, should have a flat on-axis frequency response. A corresponding power response and placement of the acoustically small loudspeakers in the room at least 1 m away from large reflectors, hides both loudspeakers and room acoustically from the listener in the 'sweet spot'.

The omnipoles will have a flatter PowResp. But room reflections + PowResp may cause a flat anechoic FR to increase in the room by 6-10dB?

I think 6 to 10db might be a bit much but I won't say anything conclusively because i have no experience with such a speaker. Maybe wmax could have helped solve this problem

So then for Omnipoles, the only thing you can do is listen with your ears, and forget about FR & polar response altogether?

Well omnipoles should have extremely good polar response and flat power response out to 360 degrees. It's because of this that flat frequency response may not work. Even peter aczel noticed something similar when he (otherwise positively) reviewed the Beolab 5:

There is, however, something slightly disturbing about the curves. They ought to be quite flat but show instead a shallow S-shaped bend, dipping in the upper midrange and peaking in the treble range. That vaguely S-shaped profile is evident at all output levels and no matter how close or far the measurement microphone is placed. It appears to be the signature of the BeoLab 5. I asked the design engineer at Bang & Olufsen whether this was deliberate “formatting,” perhaps based on listening-test preferences. He vehemently denied that and sent me B&O’s own frequency-response curves to prove that the speaker is flat. The funny thing is that the B&O curves also suggest the S-shaped profile in amplitude response but, on the other hand, indicate dead-flat power response above 1 kHz. Now, I don’t have the technology (or the patience) to do the large-scale reiterative solid-angle averaging required to derive an accurate power response, so I’ll have to give B&O the benefit of the doubt. I’m wondering, however, why the BeoLab 5 can’t have flat amplitude response—at least on axis and at moderate angles off axis—like some of the other top-notch speakers out there that also have excellent power response.

I'll stick with more predictable speakers like monopole and dipoles then.

But what if omnipoles in a custom room SOUND best???

There's a definite science to building an omnipole, but I haven't read the thousands of papers on the subject to tell you what will make the most accurate omni.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Flat power response, would imply that no matter where you measure it in a 360 degree sphere, the frequency response averages out to flat.

Most speakers including the Salons, KEFs, and Orions, have smoothly tapering power response, not flat. The main goal in power response, is not to have a big "bloom" in the crossover region from a highly directive midrange crossing to an omni tweeter etc.

Does the orion havve flat frequency and power response?

To quote SL:

I think 6 to 10db might be a bit much but I won't say anything conclusively because i have no experience with such a speaker. Maybe wmax could have helped solve this problem

Well omnipoles should have extremely good polar response and flat power response out to 360 degrees. It's because of this that flat frequency response may not work. Even peter aczel noticed something similar when he (otherwise positively) reviewed the Beolab 5:


But what if omnipoles in a custom room SOUND best???

There's a definite science to building an omnipole, but I haven't read the thousands of papers on the subject to tell you what will make the most accurate omni.

DOH!

I can't even read!

And I was looking on the Linkwitz site earlier too.

Smooth tapering power response.

Smooth tapering power response.

Smooth tapering power response.

Okay, I believe I have it now. Until I forget.

 

[Soccerkid830]

Thanks for all that above. I think I'm more leaning towards those KEF's now. Plus I can get a subwoofer on top of it with the 'extra' money.

Anyone have any experience with those KEF's and know how dark/bright the cherry finish is?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thanks for all that above. I think I'm more leaning towards those KEF's now. Plus I can get a subwoofer on top of it with the 'extra' money.

Anyone have any experience with those KEF's and know how dark/bright the cherry finish is?

Well, it doesn't look bright or dark, just in-between reddish color.

My KEF 201/2 cherry is not bright or dark either in person, but on camera they look brighter.