Speaker Phase Question

Paul DS

Paul DS

Full Audioholic
I am setting up a set of Tekton Double Impact speakers using Audyssey on my Denon AVRX4400h receiver. Here is where the problem comes in. Audyssey keeps saying one speaker is out of phase. I double checked and cables are connected correctly to the receiver. I reversed the cable on the speaker Audyssey said was out of phase and when I ran it again it said the other speaker was out of phase. Any ideas of why this might be happening? I reran Audyssey again and set it to ignore to speaker it said was out of phase. Speakers sound fantastic.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I am setting up a set of Tekton Double Impact speakers using Audyssey on my Denon AVRX4400h receiver. Here is where the problem comes in. Audyssey keeps saying one speaker is out of phase. I double checked and cables are connected correctly to the receiver. I reversed the cable on the speaker Audyssey said was out of phase and when I ran it again it said the other speaker was out of phase. Any ideas of why this might be happening? I reran Audyssey again and set it to ignore to speaker it said was out of phase. Speakers sound fantastic.
I'd contact Tekton. This is weird.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Because Tekton uses a strange phase implementation for their tweeters IIRC? Could even be your room/placement rather than the speakers. Generally when a room correction program indicates such and you can't track it down without taking the speaker apart, ignoring it and moving on is the general approach....

ps An "interesting" video from Alex/Tekton here on impedance :rolleyes:
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Audyssey tells me my main speakers are out of phase almost every time. It's due to the opposing 8" woofers on the sides and the way they're wired. SVS even warns of it in the manual and say to ignore and proceed as normal.
 
Paul DS

Paul DS

Full Audioholic
Because Tekton uses a strange phase implementation for their tweeters IIRC? Could even be your room/placement rather than the speakers. Generally when a room correction program indicates such and you can't track it down without taking the speaker apart, ignoring it and moving on is the general approach....

ps An "interesting" video from Alex/Tekton here on impedance :rolleyes:
Thanks a million. I reran audyssey and had it ignore the phase problem. Speakers sound absolutely stunning.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I'd contact Tekton. This is weird.
It is not weird. It is all about the design of the speaker. If the electrical part of the crossover is odd order, then a program like audyssey will be a toss up as to whether it calls a speaker in phase or not. If the crossover is first then the phase shift is 90 degrees, and if third order then 270. So whichever way the drivers are wired it becomes a toss whether Audyssey says the speakers are in or out of phase. My rear backs have third order crossovers between the KEFS and and the Dynaudio M75s and first order between the other two points. It is a toss up which way Audyssey calls it for obvious reasons. It is about an even split which way Audyssey will call it on every measurement.

So this is going to happen with some speakers.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
It is not weird. It is all about the design of the speaker. If the electrical part of the crossover is odd order, then a program like audyssey will be a toss up as to whether it calls a speaker in phase or not. If the crossover is first then the phase shift is 90 degrees, and if third order then 270. So whichever way the drivers are wired it becomes a toss whether Audyssey says the speakers are in or out of phase. My rear backs have third order crossovers between the KEFS and and the Dynaudio M75s and first order between the other two points. It is a toss up which way Audyssey calls it for obvious reasons. It is about an even split which way Audyssey will call it on every measurement.

So this is going to happen with some speakers.
Would the typical tweeter array on a Tekton come into play on its own merits, tho? Something along the lines of a bessel array IIRC.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
It is not weird. It is all about the design of the speaker. If the electrical part of the crossover is odd order, then a program like audyssey will be a toss up as to whether it calls a speaker in phase or not. If the crossover is first then the phase shift is 90 degrees, and if third order then 270. So whichever way the drivers are wired it becomes a toss whether Audyssey says the speakers are in or out of phase. My rear backs have third order crossovers between the KEFS and and the Dynaudio M75s and first order between the other two points. It is a toss up which way Audyssey calls it for obvious reasons. It is about an even split which way Audyssey will call it on every measurement.

So this is going to happen with some speakers.
Good explanation.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
It is not weird. It is all about the design of the speaker. If the electrical part of the crossover is odd order, then a program like audyssey will be a toss up as to whether it calls a speaker in phase or not. If the crossover is first then the phase shift is 90 degrees, and if third order then 270. So whichever way the drivers are wired it becomes a toss whether Audyssey says the speakers are in or out of phase. My rear backs have third order crossovers between the KEFS and and the Dynaudio M75s and first order between the other two points. It is a toss up which way Audyssey calls it for obvious reasons. It is about an even split which way Audyssey will call it on every measurement.

So this is going to happen with some speakers.
I'm inclined to agree with TLS Guy. I don't really understand the logic that Audyssey uses to decide whether speakers are in phase or not, but I do know it can get the call wrong. There are plenty of people who have directly experienced this problem.

Under certain circumstances, Audyssey can also be fooled by reflected sound from nearby walls, floors or ceilings. Moving speakers, or the detecting microphone – often by a few inches or less than one foot – can make a difference.

The software behind this process is still a work-in-progress, even after years of use.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Would the typical tweeter array on a Tekton come into play on its own merits, tho? Something along the lines of a bessel array IIRC.
I looked into that design and the tweeters do have varying pass bands. I suspect these crossovers are first order. So yes, I would expect this speaker to be a prime candidate to confuse Audyssey.
 
Paul DS

Paul DS

Full Audioholic
As a point of interest. I have moved the speakers 1 foot away from the rear wall and 14 inches in from the side wall with both speakers slightly towed in. Audyssey now says both speakers are in phase. I find the audio quality to be excellent. I would honestly say that I am very satisfied with the Double Impacts.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Because Tekton uses a strange phase implementation for their tweeters IIRC? Could even be your room/placement rather than the speakers. Generally when a room correction program indicates such and you can't track it down without taking the speaker apart, ignoring it and moving on is the general approach....

ps An "interesting" video from Alex/Tekton here on impedance :rolleyes:
Thanks for the vid! Eric was cool to talk to: had some good conversations with him last year. Definitely a character. ;)
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
As a point of interest. I have moved the speakers 1 foot away from the rear wall and 14 inches in from the side wall with both speakers slightly towed in. Audyssey now says both speakers are in phase. I find the audio quality to be excellent. I would honestly say that I am very satisfied with the Double Impacts.
Everybody I've heard describe them says they love them! (People have the same reaction to DefTech and B&W, too.) *shrugs :p
I was, and am, supremely interested. I would enjoy greatly the opportunity to hear them. Moreover, I want to see 3rd party testing and a tear down!
Regardless, I'm glad you got them set up well and working! For speakers that size, regardless of front ports or rear, standoff from the walls is important. I would aim, if possible, to get closer to 18" minimum from the front and side walls, and perhaps slightly different toe-in angles and spacing. (Thus far, my experience is that symmetry is less useful than an asymmetrical arrangement.)
If you happen to have Aud XT32, would really appreciate you posting your graphs that show how each front tested in your room. REW would be better still, but I'll take what I can get!!! ;)
Again, really glad you are having a good experience with them! :D
Cheers!
 
Paul DS

Paul DS

Full Audioholic
Everybody I've heard describe them says they love them! (People have the same reaction to DefTech and B&W, too.) *shrugs :p
I was, and am, supremely interested. I would enjoy greatly the opportunity to hear them. Moreover, I want to see 3rd party testing and a tear down!
Regardless, I'm glad you got them set up well and working! For speakers that size, regardless of front ports or rear, standoff from the walls is important. I would aim, if possible, to get closer to 18" minimum from the front and side walls, and perhaps slightly different toe-in angles and spacing. (Thus far, my experience is that symmetry is less useful than an asymmetrical arrangement.)
If you happen to have Aud XT32, would really appreciate you posting your graphs that show how each front tested in your room. REW would be better still, but I'll take what I can get!!! ;)
Again, really glad you are having a good experience with them! :D
Cheers!
Thank you very much for the tips on speaker placement! Speakers are very, very difficult to judge for the simple fact that every location you place them in will give them a different sound. Hearing a speaker in a store and liking it is no guarantee that you will like that speaker in your home. About the only way you will be able to tell if you like the Tektons, is to listen to them in your own home. I find them to be very neutral in sound. They do very well with Mr. Beethoven and do equally well with Mr. Springsteen. It took one hell of a leap of faith to try the Tektons. Sorry, I don't have any equipment here to make graphs.
 
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