Speaker Help -- Not finding what I want, need suggestions

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AMG_Roadster

Junior Audioholic
I was hoping not to have to ask the question that everyone else asks, but no such luck.

I need help with speakers. I am looking to replace my main speakers and will worry about everything else later.

So far I have auditioned Gallo Reference 3.1's, B&W 803s, 804, 703, XT4's, Martin Logins, Klipsch Reference, Phase Techs, Sonus Fabre, and several other brands. So far nothing is hitting a grand slam. There some things I like better about the Gallo's than the B&W 803's and vice versa which are my two favorite at this time. The B&W XT4's seem to hit harder than the 803's even though they have much smaller drivers.

The 803s are the top of my price range.

Anyone have any other suggestions? I am looking for something to wow me (may be tough in my price range). I don't Def Tech, Monitor Audio, etc. are going to cut it either.

These speakers will be used for both music & home theater and must pass the WAF. Height can't be taller than about 36 inchs.
 
S

Steve42

Audioholic
Some questions to start off:
So exactly what is your entire budget? Do the front's have to be full range or can they be capable "bookshelves" (maybe very large ones, I know of some very dynamic ones that are about 33" tall)? How big is your room again? How loud will you want to play your system?
 
A

AMG_Roadster

Junior Audioholic
Room is 18x14x9 but four openings into the rest of the house and can not be closed off.

I would have said no to bookshelf speakers before hearing the B&W XT4's. They were very impressive for the size of the drivers. I would prefer a full size full range speaker but would consider a bookshelf. Although an bookshelf requiring a stand would probably be out as once you add in the cost of the stand and speaker you can usually get a full range, floor standing speaker.

As for volume when I do like to listen to movies and music fairly loudly (at least when I can get away with it). The B&W's XT4's bottomed out the woofers in the audtion today and I would not have considered the speakers all that loud. Volume does not hit reference but probably come close.

I have had the Reference 3a Veena's recommended to me but there is no dealer nearby. http://www.reference3a.com/veena.htm

I am also now thinking about checking out KEF's speakers.

As far as budget I am really leaning towards the Earthquake MV-15 (thanks Steve). Rear's and center are not part of the equation currently. I am concentrating on the mains right now. The room is going to be reoriented with the addition of a flat panel TV. At that point the rear speakers will have to become ceiling mounted and a matching center can be purchased then or now.
 
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sjdgpt

Senior Audioholic
Have you heard anything that you did like?

Think of a price no object will not pass the WAF test kind of speaker that you liked. Anything that is close to meeting your expectations?
 
A

AMG_Roadster

Junior Audioholic
I liked both the B&W's and the Gallo's but they were not grand slams. What I mean by that is that I liked them but they both had some holes. Neither one of them knocked my socks off and left me with the feeling that I had to buy them right then and there.

Out of everything I have heard the top of the line B&W Nautuils have sounded the best.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
sometimes the measure of a great speaker isn't what it does right, but...

what it doesn't do wrong.

IOW, there is no perfect speaker.

Many speakers do many things right and a few things wrong. Sometimes it comes down to which of those do the most things right and fewest things wrong.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Mark has made a great point. All speaker designs are a system of compromises. There is no such thing as perfection. It may help if you could articulate what kind of things you didn't like about the speakers you auditioned. Perhaps we could then point you in a better direction.

Personally, I'm madly saving my pepsi bottles in order to audition/acquire a setup from ACI....based on fantastic personal (trusted) testimonials and pro reviews. Living in a rural area as I do, it's difficult to audition speakers. Sadly, buying 'sound-unheard' may be a way of life for me. Reviews and personal recommendations are about all one can use with internet-only speakers, in any event. But there is always the satisfaction-guarantee gaurantee (;)), so they can be returned, if necessary.

http://www.audioc.com/index.html

The price ranges seem to match your ballpark. Give 'em a look-see. If my Treasurer of the Mint gives me her blessing, perhaps I'll be able to give you a decent review.

Happy hunting.
 
A

AMG_Roadster

Junior Audioholic
markw said:
what it doesn't do wrong.

IOW, there is no perfect speaker.

Many speakers do many things right and a few things wrong. Sometimes it comes down to which of those do the most things right and fewest things wrong.
I agree with what you have to say. I am not necessarily trying to find the perfect speaker (even if there is one it will not be in the modest budget I have) just something that for my style of listening has different compromises or fewer. If I am going to spend the kind of money they speakers are running I would like to be more impressed than I am.

Both the B&W's and the Gallo's do very few things wrong but the do different things right. Some of the songs I sounded better on one set of speakers vs. the other. The most impressive speakers were the B&W XT4's. They blew away the more expensive B&W 703's. I was impressed about the amount of bass the small drivers put out, I liked the look, and price wise for B&W's they are tough to beat.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
what martin logan speaker did you demo? which model?
 
D

Duffman-OOHYEAH

Junior Audioholic
If the 803's are in your price range I would then suggest the Onix Ref 3's but they're too tall for your application. Have a look at www.av123.com something there might tickle your fancy. I know it takes a bit faith to order online without auditioning but you may be able to contact someone on their forum that's from your area for an audition. If you happen to live near Philly Pa you can swing by for a listen to my Rocket RS550's.


JR
 
Daz3d&Confus3d

Daz3d&Confus3d

Full Audioholic
Did you ever check out the KEF's? Of all the speakers I've ever auditioned....The KEF Reference 203's gave me some real WOW factor....they're alittle taller that your preference at 42", but then again compromise is the order of the day.

:)
 
A

AMG_Roadster

Junior Audioholic
I can't remember which Martin Logans they were. They had 8" powered woofers. The other 'drivers' were electrostatic. They were a bit 'cold' and lacking in detail.

I also listened to the Vienna Acoustics 'Grand Piano' (I believe that was the model). The sounded very good but I did not have the same listening material I had been using so can't make a direct comparison.

The gallo's did an outstanding job with male vocals, they look fantastic, are very fast, very clear in the highs, never got harsh, and the 10" dual coil woofers are very nice and add a lot. They also had an incredible sound stage. My complaints are that they are missing something in the transition from the woofer to the midrange, not sure if they did not shift some of the music to a little higher frequency then they really are, and finally while they did not get harsh they did come close to being annoying at times in the highs. In addition placement too close to a read wall seriously impacted sound quality & stage.

The B&W 803's while acceptable to the wife did not have the same artistic flair of the Gallo's (impacts the wife not me). They did not seem to have the same presence as the gallo's or even the XT4's (the bass riffs hit much harder in the XT4's). The sound stage while good was not as good as the gallo's. They were a bit smoother than the Gallo's. While both speakers did a good job on the Tool CD we were using (it is a poor recording) they B&W's did a better job. There also seem to be some transitions that the B&W's could handle better.

Let me give more thoughts to the pluses & minuses to the speakers and talk with one of the guys that has listened to the speakers with me.

ACI makes some very nice stuff. I really like their Maestro Sub and would be intersted in getting one. The only issue is going to be that they probably won't make it past the WAF.

Before today I would have expressed concern over the driver selection in the Onix Reference meeting the full range sound I am looking for. After listening to the B&W XT4's I am open to smaller drivers. The Onix have two issues, 1) they are too tall and 2) they will not meet the WAF.

Now let me describe what I am looking for. This will probably end up as sounding like the attempt to build a perfect speaker but here is goes:

  • Not a traditional box or tower look. The B&W's pass due to the tweeter on top and the fact that the front is not a flat place (this is of course a WAF issue)
  • A full range speaker. The speakers should not fall on their face if the sub is removed from the mix. They should handle everything from Metalica, Beastie Boys, NERD, Tool, Chopin, Bach, Beetohven, Tchovisky, Steely Dan, Rage Against the Machine, REM, Blue Man Group to HT, e.g. King Kong, War of the Worlds, Master & Commmander, Fifth Element, Ronin, etc.
  • The speakers should provide a presence. You should be aware of the music. It should convey the sense of being at a concert.
  • Fast. The drivers should be able to keep up with the transistions/music.
  • There should be no 'missing' areas or the appearnce of poorly chosen crossover points.
  • They speakers should handle the highs well but not be overly bright. A bit more on the warm side than the bright side.

There are some other items I should list but the first time I wrote this response I suddenly received a message that I was not logged in and lost all my work.
 
A

AMG_Roadster

Junior Audioholic
Daz3d&Confus3d said:
Did you ever check out the KEF's? Of all the speakers I've ever auditioned....The KEF Reference 203's gave me some real WOW factor....they're alittle taller that your preference at 42", but then again compromise is the order of the day.

:)
I have yet to check out the KEF's. I actually forgot all about them until today. They list a dealer near where I work so I am going to have to go give them a listen. Might be able to do that tomorrow.
 
S

Steve42

Audioholic
rjbudz said:
http://www.audioc.com/index.html

The price ranges seem to match your ballpark. Give 'em a look-see.
The ACI EssenceV's were actually what I was referring to earlier. They are actually about 32" tall, but will be more dynamic then you will ever need. They do need a quality sub like the MKV-15 though. You can audition them in your own room, and if you don't like them, you only need to pay the return shipping. They do not charge you for the original shipping to you. That's how confident they are in their products. Excellent warranty as well. Might be just what you are looking for. The center is excellent and has been compared to the highly acclaimed Ariel center which retails for around $3500ea. Check them out (variety of finishes as well):
http://www.audioc.com/speakers1/essencev/essencevdetail.htm
 
A

AMG_Roadster

Junior Audioholic
I am willing to accept the cost of return shipping if I don't like them but I am afraid the EssenceV's will not make it past the WAF. I think they are going to be too 'old school' for her. Me? Last time I was shopping for speakers I really wanted a pair of the Klipsch KLF-30's. For those not familar these things come with 12 inch drivers (if I remember correctly it is actually dual 12" drivers per speaker). Never heard them but at the time they appeard to be everything I was looking for on paper. My tastes have changed some and I am having to make compromises.

As an FYI the reason for the height limitation is that there is a light switch that the speakers will block if they go any higher. I can live with this for the right speakers as they are not used all that often.
 
A

AMG_Roadster

Junior Audioholic
WAF issues over all are not too bad. She just has two requirements 1) No 'Wood' look (black ash is acceptable but no Cherry, Maple, Walnut, etc.) and 2) Traditional box or tower speakers are going to be a tough sell. Although those two requirements certinaly are turning into a limiting factor.

I can get her to accept the Gallo's, B&W's, Mythos, Reference3a's, and many others. They should need some kind of 'flair'. Slab sided, flat angles are not really the style she wants.

I could get her to accept the Swans. I am just not familar with them at all.
 
M

mdrew

Audioholic
Sounds like you like detailed speakers if you like the B&W’s. I’ve got several sets of Axiom speakers including the M80’s. The M80’s sound very akin to the B&W 703’s and Paradigm studio 100’s (you should also give the Paradigms a listen). Axiom now offers a wide range of custom wood finishes. (you pick the wood, the stain, and the finish). You might try them. A set of the M80’s in the most expensive Rosewood piano finish are about $2300 (you can get the price on-line).

I’ve also got a set of Wharfedale Opus 2’s in a piano black finish.

I’m not sure which I prefer to listen to, the M80’s or the Opus 2’s. They are both detailed with plenty of mid range slam and more than enough low end bass. The 80’s are more forward, but I don’t want to say “more detailed”, because the Opus’s can really get your attention too. The Opus’s have a tad more low end bass and a wider sound stage due to the dome mid range. They are taller than what you want, but the Opus 1’s should fit. I haven’t heard them, so can’t comment on their sound. They have one 8” woofer, where the 2’s have two of them. The Opus 3’s have two 10” woofers. All three have the same 3” dome mid range and tweeter.

I definitely prefer the appearance of the Opus’s. If you haven’t seen them, they have a radius'ed face and sides (almost tear shaped). People always comment on how nice they look and ask “how much were those”. You know, that question folks always ask when something looks really expensive. They retail between 3K – 5K (depending on the dealer), but you can find them for under 3K if you look around enough. If you want some pics, just PM me and I’ll send you some.
 
A

AMG_Roadster

Junior Audioholic
For the most part I liked the B&W 803's.

I did not like the 703's. They just were not smooth or detailed enough nor did they have enough presence. I had thought I might take a listen to the 600 series B&W's but after hearing the 700's I figured I would not ven bother. I actually liked the less expensive B&W XT4's better than the 703's. They just sounded better all around.

Looks wise the Wharfedale's will get by the wife. There is a distributor in my area but not sure if he is going to have anything in stock. I will have to check and give them a listen. I am hoping they don't have the same issues as the 703's.
 
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