Speaker Curious

[JackVa1]

I am trying to understand something and I hope you guys know.

Back in 1976 I read a Consumers Report on Hi Fi systems. Consumers selected a High Medium and Low price componant system recomendation. One thing of note was that the AVID 102 Speaker speakers received a 92 accuracy reproducton score by the testers. They used some sort of instrument, presumably. Further, they said it was so good, that it could be used in either the High or Medium priced systems. (They retailed at 150 each)

I took my Sansui receiver into a store and did some AB blind listening and was surprised that the AVID's sounded good with my system and sounded better than some very large towers and misc higher priced speakers.

I have seen a lot of speaker white papers and buying guide stuff, It is all based on new purchases. Who out there knows what exactly has changed since back then?

I do recall owning some Sansui all wood with wood grills (from the war) that I was later told were old technology (3 -way crossover) and that engineers now knew to use cloth for a grill like my AVID's and that was in 1985.

Anyone have literature on this stuff or should I just get out of the 70's and forget about it? I used the AVID's for a while as both front and real surrounds with a high end ONKYO and they seemed to do fine. My kids still use them today and they fil a room with nice sound.

I'd like to know about this if anyone knows or can point me to some information. I asked in the Novice forum and someone said it was like a car from the 70's compared to a car now and I know my ears are not that bad...

Thanks in advance.

 

[no. 5]

A good performing speaker is a good performing speaker, however, just exactly what a good performing speaker is has been refined over the past few decades, with improvements in measurements, and greater knowledge about psychoacoustics.

As example, Floyd Toole's work at the NRC in Canada didn't start until the 70's; so logically, speakers built around that time would not have been designed with the benefit of the information that was just starting to be gathered than.

The link I posted in your last thread has some information concerning what is known now that wasn't then, some more, and even more on it.

Some more to think about is how the AVID 102's score of 92 was obtained.
Was it with trained listeners? A 1/3 octave spectrum analyzer? Was there any measurements taken as to cabinet resonance? Were listening evaluations done under level matched double, or single blind conditions?
Because there is no device that will spit out some kind of a score when connected to a loudspeaker, one must find out if the tests done are accurate enough to conclude that a speaker is "good".

 

[Tomorrow]

I am trying to understand something and I hope you guys know.

Back in 1976 I read a Consumers Report on Hi Fi systems. Consumers selected a High Medium and Low price componant system recomendation. One thing of note was that the AVID 102 Speaker speakers received a 92 accuracy reproducton score by the testers. They used some sort of instrument, presumably. Further, they said it was so good, that it could be used in either the High or Medium priced systems. (They retailed at 150 each)

I took my Sansui receiver into a store and did some AB blind listening and was surprised that the AVID's sounded good with my system and sounded better than some very large towers and misc higher priced speakers.

I have seen a lot of speaker white papers and buying guide stuff, It is all based on new purchases. Who out there knows what exactly has changed since back then?

I do recall owning some Sansui all wood with wood grills (from the war) that I was later told were old technology (3 -way crossover) and that engineers now knew to use cloth for a grill like my AVID's and that was in 1985.

Anyone have literature on this stuff or should I just get out of the 70's and forget about it? I used the AVID's for a while as both front and real surrounds with a high end ONKYO and they seemed to do fine. My kids still use them today and they fil a room with nice sound.

I'd like to know about this if anyone knows or can point me to some information. I asked in the Novice forum and someone said it was like a car from the 70's compared to a car now and I know my ears are not that bad...

Thanks in advance.

In my opinion a vintage speaker is exactly like a vintage car...some are okay, some are outrageously good. In ~1964 I came this close >< to buying a low mileage Gull-Wing Mercedes 300SL. It was $4,000. Today...guess what that car is worth.

I would ask those guys who said speakers are like today's cars. Would you buy a $4,000 car today and come anywhere near comparing it to a classic 300SL Gull-Wing? There were some fine speakers made in the decade of the 70's. And most of all...it's your ears, not what others say, that should dictate your liking/buying new speakers or keeping your old ones. Audition a few new speakers and see what you think.

Save a tree. Refurbish old speakers. (You can put spiffy new crossovers in old speakers and really make them sing, btw.)

 

[TLS Guy]

Thiel/small parameters

The thing that changed the most, was the paper published by Thiel and Small which gave us the first mathematical model of the interaction of driver and box, for closed and vented enclosures. These are the Thiel Small parameters. They were right on, and their work is the basis of all closed and ported designs. Once everybody got up the speed there was a quantum improvement in loudspeaker bass performance.
During the late 70 and 80s crossover modeling programs made an increasing impact, coupled with computerized measurement programs. All of this technology continues to improve. The next quantum improvement will come from digital crossovers.

 

[JackVa1]

The thing that changed the most, was the paper published by Thiel and Small which gave us the first mathematical model of the interaction of driver and box, for closed and vented enclosures. These are the Thiel Small parameters. They were right on, and their work is the basis of all closed and ported designs. Once everybody got up the speed there was a quantum improvement in loudspeaker bass performance.
During the late 70 and 80s crossover modeling programs made an increasing impact, coupled with computerized measurement programs. All of this technology continues to improve. The next quantum improvement will come from digital crossovers.

What year was this published? And thanks for the information.
I assume after the companies read this that they went to work and re-designed their speakers.
What the heck was Consumers measuring back in the mid seventies when they said certain speakers were doing such a great job of perfectly reproducing what they were given?

They knew back then that the goal was not to introduce a lot of extra sound. I remember back then that Consumers Report said the Japanese speakers like Pioneer were low efficiency and added a lot of extra kick to the music.

 

[TLS Guy]

What year was this published? And thanks for the information.
I assume after the companies read this that they went to work and re-designed their speakers.
What the heck was Consumers measuring back in the mid seventies when they said certain speakers were doing such a great job of perfectly reproducing what they were given?

They knew back then that the goal was not to introduce a lot of extra sound. I remember back then that Consumers Report said the Japanese speakers like Pioneer were low efficiency and added a lot of extra kick to the music.

Sorry, I should have given the date. It was 1971. Raymond Cooke founder of KEF was the first manufacturer to really embrace that paper. He set up computer modeling at Tovil Kent in 1976. There is always a time lag after a landmark paper. Different manufacturers took on board the significance of the work at different times.

 

[JackVa1]

Thanks, I appreciate the information. I will look this up. It's good stuff.

Jack

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Are Avid speakers still made? If so, do their current products still rate a 92?

 

[TLS Guy]

Avid

Here is a vintage pair of Avids on eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Speakers-Avid-Model-100-Loudspeaker-Excellent_W0QQitemZ130176724729QQihZ003QQcategoryZ50597QQcmdZViewItem

I had never heard of Avid speakers before, and from the look of the above pair, that is likely a blessing.

I do not think consumers reports were ever a noted audio magazine, and over the years I've pretty much disagreed with everything they have had to say about matters to do with audio.

Someone seems to be selling speakers still under the Avid brand name.

 

[JackVa1]

Here is a vintage pair of Avids on eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Speakers-Avid-Model-100-Loudspeaker-Excellent_W0QQitemZ130176724729QQihZ003QQcategoryZ50597QQcmdZViewItem

I had never heard of Avid speakers before, and from the look of the above pair, that is likely a blessing.

I do not think consumers reports were ever a noted audio magazine, and over the years I've pretty much disagreed with everything they have had to say about matters to do with audio.

Someone seems to be selling speakers still under the Avid brand name.

My Avid's were (still are) much better than those things. As I said they were 150 each in 1976. I hook them up to the ONKYO and they sound excellent today. Even in 1976 though, people said "ADVENYT"? and I had to correct them. I wish I had the back Issue because CU did a pretty good analysis of sound back then and I also subscribed to "Stereo Review" . I matched the AVID's up with a really cool Nakamichi receiver, Nakamichi Casette deck and a Teac Reel to Reel.

Bringing a tear to my eye right now...

 

[no. 5]

I wish I had the back Issue because CU did a pretty good analysis of sound back then and I also subscribed to "Stereo Review" .

How about some excerpts?

After reading what the tests involved, I do feel the tests that were used by Consumer Reports are insufficient to accurately judge a loudspeaker.

Measurements aside, if you like them that is the important thing, inaccurate measurements do not make a speaker bad.