Speaker Cable doesn't matter?

[gmoneyreece]

let me preface this by saying i have been a member of this forum for quiet a while now, i haven't posted much lately here but still read alot of the posts here and on other sites.

i remember reading the debunking speaker cable myths articles and continue to still see posts here saying that speaker cable does not make a difference in preformance. i have a big problem with that statment. over the past 3 years i have experimented with alot of audio equipment, here is the lsit of gear that i have personally owned:

paradigm signature S8s, C5, S2s.
thiel CS3.6s
paradigm cinema 330s
B&W 705s
axiom m22
crapy JBL 5.1 surround system

denon 4306
denon 5805
pioneer elite 84txsi
harman kardon 525
krell 400xi

outlaw 7125
rotel 1080
rotel 1050

denon 5910
pioneer elite dv-79avi
ps3

and probably a few other items i can't remember...

anyways, i first belived that speaker cable would have little to no effect on the sound quality of my equipment, this simply was not true. as my gear improved i noticed that incremental increase in speaker cable were necessary.

for example, for the Denon 4306 to the paradigm cinema 330s 12 guage standard speaker cable worked fine, i felt i was getting all i could out of the speakers.

for the thiel 3.6s with the rotel amps the standard cable was very harsh and light on base. i then switched to homemade CAT5 speaker cables, the base response was drastically improved.

for the paradigm signatures and the krell 400xi the homemade cable wasn't cutting it, i purchased several different types of PS Audios statment speaker cable (About $300 on audiogon) and wala, the speakers (S2s) came to life and this combination was one of the best i have heard.

i am an electrical engineer so HARD DATA and actual measurments are very important to me but when it comes to audio equipment it is a very difficult thing to measure. the human ear is an extrmely sophicated device. you may build a speaker that has a perfectly flat response across all frequencinces and it could still sound like crap to most people. almost all major speaker manufactures (and cable manufactures) use actual listening sessions to evalute their products because measurements alone are not enough.

with all that being said, my best advice for anyone is to try stuff out for your self. everyone hears things differently, and different equipment combinations, including SPEAKER CABLE does make a difference.

 

[fmw]

You can measure cable reactance. But what you need to do is what I did and that is conduct a blind listening test. Then you will realize that what you hear and what your emotions tell you you should hear or want to hear or are two different things. As long as you know what you are listening to, then your brain will convince of all kinds of things that aren't there. It happens to everyone. It is just human.

It is possible for cables to attenuate some frequencies if there is a lot of inductance or capacitance built into them. I would view these cables as incompetently designed or, at the very best, designed specifically to attenuate some frequencies. If you ever happen to be in Indiana, stop by and I'll prove to you that speaker cables, at least competently designed and manufactured ones, have no sound at all.

 

[j_garcia]

I've been in engineering (mechanical not electrical) for many years also and I have tried a lot of different speaker cables. I do believe they make a slight difference, however the difference is so small that it literally doesn't make sense to spend top dollar on something that makes such a small difference. Using the wrong AWG can make a difference as well, and that could be why the CAT5 exhibits different sound.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Cables designed for audio probably do sound somewhat better than those (eg lamp cord) that are not. Gauge makes a difference for long runs. That's about it.
I bought some moderately expensive cable ($2.00/ft) and temporarily convinced myself that it was an improvement. Once I did a proper A/B comparison with the RCA stuff from Home Depot, however, it became obvious that I was deluding myself.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think the take home message is buy good cables, but don't waste money on exotic cables.
For example, buy Blue Jeans speaker cables, but don't buy Wal-Mart generic speaker cables that look like crap.
I have the Blue Jeans 10-gauge White speaker cables and the white RCA interconnects as well.
I also have Kimber Kable speaker wires and interconnects that costs a lot more, but don't sound any different than any good cable.

 

[gus6464]

Blue Jean cables are great. I use the Belden twelve white for my system. Here are some very high quality locking bananas at a great price.

http://www.speakerrepair.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=locking

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Those are good but you can get them cheaper on Ebay.

Blue Jean cables are great. I use the Belden twelve white for my system. Here are some very high quality locking bananas at a great price.

http://www.speakerrepair.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=locking

 

[j_garcia]

Blue Jeans has basically the same ones for the same price until you start buying like 50 pairs or so. I use the ones from BJC and they work very well.

 

[Wafflesomd]

Go head-fi.

They know all about cables affecting sound...

 

[gmoneyreece]

i think the 10% rule is a pretty good one to go by. spend 10% of your total system cost on cabling. if you have a $300 receiver and $500 speakers the i don't think $2000 transparent speaker cable is for you. now if you have $15,000 wilsons and a $5000 krell amp then $2/foot zip cord is probably not the cable you are looking for.

the one thing i have not, and probaly will not test out is high end power cables. this to me cannot improve sound quality (but i have never tried). looking at it logically you power cord is only about 18"-24" long while ahead of that you have 25+' of crapy 14 guage (maybe 12 guage) romex wiring, a residential grade circuit breaker box, and even more trouble up stream from that. can the last 18" really make a difference?

 

[avaserfi]

i think the 10% rule is a pretty good one to go by. spend 10% of your total system cost on cabling. if you have a $300 receiver and $500 speakers the i don't think $2000 transparent speaker cable is for you. now if you have $15,000 wilsons and a $5000 krell amp then $2/foot zip cord is probably not the cable you are looking for.

Tell that to Gene and his 14k a pair speakers with 70 cent a foot wire attached .

http://www.audioholics.com/buying-guides/reference-systems/reference-system-1/equipment-list

 

[j_garcia]

i think the 10% rule is a pretty good one to go by. spend 10% of your total system cost on cabling. if you have a $300 receiver and $500 speakers the i don't think $2000 transparent speaker cable is for you. now if you have $15,000 wilsons and a $5000 krell amp then $2/foot zip cord is probably not the cable you are looking for.

I would tend to agree with that, but at the same time I don't think that $1000 speaker cables are going to sound $900 better than $100 cables. As you move up the food chain, the amount of difference as you go up in price does not have a linear correlation IMO; meaning you pay a lot more for smaller and smaller differences.

the one thing i have not, and probaly will not test out is high end power cables. this to me cannot improve sound quality (but i have never tried). looking at it logically you power cord is only about 18"-24" long while ahead of that you have 25+' of crapy 14 guage (maybe 12 guage) romex wiring, a residential grade circuit breaker box, and even more trouble up stream from that. can the last 18" really make a difference?

I picked up a $50 power cable for my receiver because the one it came with kept falling out. It made no difference in any way to the sound but at least it didn't fall out....

 

[mtrycrafts]

i think the 10% rule is a pretty good one to go by. spend 10% of your total system cost on cabling.

I will totally disagree with this rule as the cost of the system components are irrelevant to the cost of the wires you connect them with, period.
But, the cable marketeers love this rule.

 

[Woodroc]

the one thing i have not, and probaly will not test out is high end power cables. this to me cannot improve sound quality (but i have never tried). looking at it logically you power cord is only about 18"-24" long while ahead of that you have 25+' of crapy 14 guage (maybe 12 guage) romex wiring, a residential grade circuit breaker box, and even more trouble up stream from that. can the last 18" really make a difference?[/QUOTE]

Maybe...if you stretched it all the way back to the power station

 

[mtrycrafts]

i am an electrical engineer so HARD DATA and actual measurments are very important to me but when it comes to audio equipment it is a very difficult thing to measure. the human ear is an extrmely sophicated device. you may build a speaker that has a perfectly flat response across all frequencinces and it could still sound like crap to most people. almost all major speaker manufactures (and cable manufactures) use actual listening sessions to evalute their products because measurements alone are not enough.

with all that being said, my best advice for anyone is to try stuff out for your self. everyone hears things differently, and different equipment combinations, including SPEAKER CABLE does make a difference.

I need to totally disagree with you on this, especially since or in spite of you being an EE.

I would say with high degree of confidence that you have no or minimal immersion into human psychology, bias and human gullibility, the Barnum Effect.
If you did, you would know that human bias is innate, subconscious with no on/off switch and this is a gotcha, big time. FMW made mention to this.

OK, hard data is important to you in your field. Great. Now that you venture into audio listening, what hard data or any data can you share that shows audible differences between comparable cables? Have you tried to compare any of your wires and components, level matched and under double blind conditions? I bet not as then you would be singing a different tune most likely. Have you researched what data there might be out there about this?
Being an EE, or a PhD, for that matter, is no guarantee or gives one immunity from being biased and leaving their baloney detection bag at the office, as Carl Sagan was used to say.

Then you go on about the ear, how sophisticated it is. Yes, but it has short coming, lots of it, in fact, especially being connected to the brain that abhors blank data fields so it fills them in with anything, imagination.
Acoustic researchers know this well. Have you investigated this at all? After all, it is important to listening to audio.

Then you mention speakers with flat response and what people prefer. Have you consulted research what people really prefer, or just going along with the audiophile flow?
Just a small snippet form the research at NRC Canada
• These tests determined that the characteristics that people preferred in speakers were:
- Low Distortion
- Flat Response and wide bandwidth
- Wide Dispersion

Obviously the research disagrees with your assessment on the subject.

Yes, speaker companies use listening tests as do some component designers. Cable companies do listening tests? Is that a joke? You got to be kidding me.
And the question I have is that do you know how those listening tests are conducted or just guessing?
Perhaps you should read some AES Journal articles, specifically by Dr. Floyd Toole how those listening tests are conducted. Interesting reading to be sure.
And, maybe you will be shocked that measurements do correlate very well with what you do hear. It is a shocker, I know. Or, maybe it may be too much of a shocker for some.

Once you do some of the component comparisons properly, perhaps you will have a different message to the new posters here and the old times as well. We'll see. Or, you may want to ask FMW, a former gullible audiophile until he was enlightened first hand.


Thanks for posting

 

[mtrycrafts]

Cables designed for audio probably do sound somewhat better than those (eg lamp cord) that are not. Gauge makes a difference for long runs. That's about it.
o

How is lamp cord designed differently from audio speaker cables? Yes, gauge matters and it matters in lamp cords too

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Blue Jean cables are great. I use the Belden twelve white for my system. Here are some very high quality locking bananas at a great price.

http://www.speakerrepair.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=locking

Those locking banana plugs look pretty good.
I think Blue Jeans Cable wires look very good, but I wish they could make them look fancier---without raising the price significantly

How about putting the fishnet outer jacket over the cables?

Do they make anything like that without cosing too much?

For example, Monoprice.com has the HDMI premium cables with the fishnet jacket, and it looks like $200 cables, except they are extremely inexpensive.

So do they make fishnet jackets on speaker wires?

 

[agarwalro]

With cables, the problem is caused by interference and crosstalk, the strength of which is governed by signal level and cable length. But in a "typical" a/v installation, the effects are neglegible when compared to speaker palcement and room response effects. In the home a/v environment, if you use the correct gauge and decent quality you are set. Brand, look, price, etc. are irrelevant.

The best anology I can think of is:
In a room without light control using a projector that is not calibrated but relatively decent. In this hypothetical situation, you are saying the picture will improve with ISF calibration. But in reality, you will get much greater improvement in picture quality if you install blinds on the windows.

 

[jliedeka]

I'm using Monster XP which I think is your basic 12 gauge zip cord. For my system, I dont believe it's a limiting factor. As I upgrade my receiver and speakers, I plan to buy the 12 or 10 gauge Belden cable from Blue Jeans.

For most runs, any 12 gauge copper is adequate. If you are running more than 25 feet, I'd look for something that has less resistance. Beyond that you have capacitance and inductance to worry about. I think inductance becomes a factor in long runs. I'd probably avoid zip cord for that reason.

Beyond that, I don't really buy in to silvered surfaces to avoid skin effect, O2 free copper or cryonic treatments. I can't say for sure none of those things matter but I'm pretty sure the buck for the bang ratio is beyond what I would spend.

Jim

 

[pzaur]

If this information were available, I think it would be very interesting to find out where cables are "manufactured" and where they are "labeled".
Copper is copper and the cables probably come from a few sources that the manufacturers keep secret so we don't find out the truth about what their costs really are and who else makes cables in the same factory.

-pat