Source material quality, how good is good enough?

T

TankTop5

Audioholic General
I’m currently listening to all my music via Tidal (not Masters) and I’m wondering how much audible improvements I can get going to higher quality recordings? Would I notice much of an audible gain from something like HD tracks steaming USB from a PC vs CAT 5 HEOS Tidal?

Also I hate HEOS, too clunky for lack of a better term. Options on ROON? More often than not I just use the Tidal app and stream via AirPlay.
 
John Parks

John Parks

Audioholic Samurai
In before certain members weigh in with a resounding "No difference - low bit-rate MP3 is all you need, no need to worry about anything else" and direct you to the same, tired YouTube videos and websites promoting as such...

That being said, it depends on what your definition of "much audible improvements" and "much audible gain". To my ears (and mine alone) there is a difference (however slight) between even Tidal's regular output and "Masters" (i.e., MQA etc.). Same goes for physical media vs streaming - I usually prefer the former; the latter is more convenient. Of course it does depend heavily on the recording, mastering and your own playback equipment.

Even though I try to use the highest resolution possible as a rule, I am perfectly happy listening to lower rez stuff and not worry if I am "missing something" (music first, format third). The easiest way to find out if you can hear a difference (and if it is important to you!) is give it a try for yourself and not listen to silly twits like me... If you do indeed hear a difference, it's best to keep it to yourself (especially on sites like AH) to avoid a public shaming!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I think CD quality (16/44) is as high res as anyone can detect, and yes, some MP3 can be very difficult to hear a difference. I don't listen to MP3 myself and rip all my cds into lossless (WAV/FLAC) files.
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic General
Awhile back I switched from all the run of the mill MP3 streaming services to Tidal and noticed a huge improvement, even streaming Bluetooth in my car. I upgraded to Masters and there is a noticeable difference to me but my current system layout, home, family and pets made it difficult to spend enough time enjoying it. Upper management has decided to resign the job so everything is going to change soon including the house. With that said I still don’t know what my system layout will be but if I can get a significant improvement in layout including some minor room treatments and speaker position then I want to improve my source material as well if it nets me a gain.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I can hear a difference between regular ol' Amazon and Amazon HD. HD comes close to CD quality ime.
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic General
I think CD quality (16/44) is as high res as anyone can detect, and yes, some MP3 can be very difficult to hear a difference. I don't listen to MP3 myself and rip all my cds into lossless (WAV/FLAC) files.
Most people don’t know it but an Xbox can be a great streamer, I bought an 8TB storage for mine but it’s dedicated to games. I may get another and dedicate it to media..

I didn’t notice a significant difference in Amazon vs Amazon HD
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
That said... I do have a MP3 version of my Fear Inoculum CD and I can't hear a difference a/b'ing between it and my lossless rip. In fact my MP3 sounds better than Amazon HD...
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic General
If I could get a Roon app on my Xbox I’d buy the lifetime membership yesterday. There’s really no reason it can’t be done, I’m sure the entire Xbox UI runs on some form of a Windows kernel.
 
nathan_h

nathan_h

Audioholic
I’m currently listening to all my music via Tidal (not Masters) and I’m wondering how much audible improvements I can get going to higher quality recordings? Would I notice much of an audible gain from something like HD tracks steaming USB from a PC vs CAT 5 HEOS Tidal?

Also I hate HEOS, too clunky for lack of a better term. Options on ROON? More often than not I just use the Tidal app and stream via AirPlay.
I suspect you will find that the differences in sound quality between these different solutions has less to do with the bit rate of the source (above a certain point which varies from 320kbps and lossless 44.1/16 depending on the listener, room and gear) and a lot more to do with which masters they have access to, what their adaptive streaming tech is like, and what the weakest link in your system/room is.

For example, AirPlay is lossless up to at least 48/16 iirc.... but sources can vary, meaning that container may not be fully utilized....EXCEPT with some apps you are simply connecting the server to the player and not actually running it through the phone.... and such a direct connection is no longer really Airplay but just streaming to your AirPlay renderer from the serivce itself, and will be subject to fewer network issues in most cases.....so it will would sound better, but not for the reasons you cite.

Does that mean Airplay sounds great? Not necessarily at all. It means that ecosystem is working well in your home.

Roon is a great front end piece of software, if you don't mind the high price, but the quality of the music will depend on the source files, and your hardware and network and software topology.

So you are asking about two different things: Sound quality and usability.

I might respectfully suggest you start by figuring out which option in each category works best for you, and then see if they can be used together. (It may be an iterative process if they can't, and you have to choose "second best for me" in one category.)

And be open to the fact that a good master at 44.1/16 is going to blow away a crappy master at 192/24, which is why a good master at 320kps mp3 can sound better than a lossless HD track, too.

So when it comes to quality, their is no substitute for subscribing to a service (most off a free trial), listening to the genres/artists you typically listen to, and deciding for yourself....especially now versus ever before since some offer MQA, some ATMOS, some have custom masters like Apple for some content, etc, etc. meaning I can definitively state that HD Amazon is better....except for these six albums which got a better mastering on iTunes, and these others where the MQA version is better, both of which are at a lower bit depth or rate.....
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic General
I suspect you will find that the differences in sound quality between these different solutions has less to do with the bit rate of the source (above a certain point which varies from 320kbps and lossless 44.1/16 depending on the listener, room and gear) and a lot more to do with which masters they have access to, what their adaptive streaming tech is like, and what the weakest link in your system/room is.

For example, AirPlay is lossless up to at least 48/16 iirc.... but sources can vary, meaning that container may not be fully utilized....EXCEPT with some apps you are simply connecting the server to the player and not actually running it through the phone.... and such a direct connection is no longer really Airplay but just streaming to your AirPlay renderer from the serivce itself, and will be subject to fewer network issues in most cases.....so it will would sound better, but not for the reasons you cite.

Does that mean Airplay sounds great? Not necessarily at all. It means that ecosystem is working well in your home.

Roon is a great front end piece of software, if you don't mind the high price, but the quality of the music will depend on the source files, and your hardware and network and software topology.

So you are asking about two different things: Sound quality and usability.

I might respectfully suggest you start by figuring out which option in each category works best for you, and then see if they can be used together. (It may be an iterative process if they can't, and you have to choose "second best for me" in one category.)

And be open to the fact that a good master at 44.1/16 is going to blow away a crappy master at 192/24, which is why a good master at 320kps mp3 can sound better than a lossless HD track, too.

So when it comes to quality, their is no substitute for subscribing to a service (most off a free trial), listening to the genres/artists you typically listen to, and deciding for yourself....especially now versus ever before since some offer MQA, some ATMOS, some have custom masters like Apple for some content, etc, etc. meaning I can definitively state that HD Amazon is better....except for these six albums which got a better mastering on iTunes, and these others where the MQA version is better, both of which are at a lower bit depth or rate.....
Great, thanks for simplifying it for me. LOL

Actually you did help a little. I like Tidal overall and I’ll upgrade to Masters when I have a new layout for my system. To add to that I will find recordings I like from other sources and download/rip as it sounds there just isn’t a simple answer.

I just like the idea of Roon, a well organized ecosystem, I understand it’s just organizing whatever I have.
 
John Parks

John Parks

Audioholic Samurai
Great, thanks for simplifying it for me. LOL

Actually you did help a little. I like Tidal overall and I’ll upgrade to Masters when I have a new layout for my system. To add to that I will find recordings I like from other sources and download/rip as it sounds there just isn’t a simple answer.

I just like the idea of Roon, a well organized ecosystem, I understand it’s just organizing whatever I have.
Yeah - Roon is pretty awesome! I really like its "suggestion" algorithms as they are pretty much spot on. No matter how much I do not listen to Jay Z, Tidal will always assume I want to hear him (or the genre) in the "mixes" created for me...
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic General
Yeah - Roon is pretty awesome! I really like its "suggestion" algorithms as they are pretty much spot on. No matter how much I do not listen to Jay Z, Tidal will always assume I want to hear him (or the genre) in the "mixes" created for me...
1000x yes!!!! Tidal would gain millions of subscribers if your home page was customized by suggestions to what you listen to.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
What size internet is needed for no loss tidal or deezer?

I get pretty good audio from regular deezer and Spotify already.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I trialed the Tidal Masters service, found wading thru the JayZ advertising annoying. Didn't like suggested music but that's with only choosing a partial library compared to what I could over a longer time period, like I'd already done with Pandora and Spotify. Couldn't find a lot of stuff I had on Spotify. Didn't find anything magic about audio quality. Then trialled Qobuz and liked the presentation better (and had some stuff I couldn't find on Tidal, too) and still nothing remarkable about the audio. Kept using Spotify. The idea of MQA is annoying, too.

ps I use streaming for background and suggestions for new stuff to buy, not to replace my own library....mostly I play music of my own I've ripped to flac from cd as well as sources on various other optical discs....
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I had Pandora, Apple, Amazon, Spotify, and Deezer all at the same time for a bit.

The Deezer was my favorite but Spotify was almost identical and it came down to which worked easiest for me. Essentially a tie. Apple would be 3rd place of the ones I listed. It sounded good but hated the app. AMZN the lyrics were cool to read and had some videos on Firestick but censored videos. It didn’t sound as good as the other 3. Pandora I liked the app but was less quality. I kept Pandora at the $5 level (plus). I kept Deezer at the $10 level month to month.

When I tried the Deezer cd quality it was dropping out so maybe would require faster Internet. Not sure.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
I think music quality from anyone, be it buying a CD or LP , or streaming from Tidal, Qobuz, Amazon etec.. all depends on the method used to acquire the music that is being sold or streamed to its users. WE don't know what these companies were given, was it a true masters copy or was it a copy of a copy of a copy some record industry clerk sent them.
Example: Steely Dan 'Aja'. there are seven digital masterings of Aja: 1) a 1984 CD mastered by Steve Hoffman, 2) a 1984 CD mastered by Nichols, 3) a 1984 Japanese CD with uncertain mastering credits, 4) a 1988 Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab CD remaster, 5) a 1993 remaster by Glenn Meadows found on the Citizen Steely Dan CD box set, 6) a 1999 CD remaster by Nichols, and 7) a 2010 “flat transfe[r] from Japan[ese] original analogue master tapes” by Hitoshi Takiguchi at Tokyo’s Universal Music Studios, used for both a 2010 SACD and several subsequent CDs. . People have their favorites
 

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