Sounds Great vs Great Sounds: Understanding Your Listening Biases

gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
It has been said that there are two possible objectives for an audio system: a) recreate the sound of a past performance with the desire to “transport” the listener to the original venue or b) create a performance in the listening environment that is unique. The line separating the two objectives is wide yet gray. The origin of the line begins with the artist, flows through the recording and mixing engineers, and ends up right there in your listening room where you make the final decision. The joy a musical or cinematic creation brings to you, the equipment you own, and indeed the very nature of the content you consume, is intimately tied to this philosophical position. The object of this paper is not to identify the “correct” goal for audio recreation - there is no “correct.” Instead, the point is to bring to the forefront the deliberate contemplation of an entertainment system’s ultimate purpose – a purpose this is personal in every sense!

Read On
 
gregz

gregz

Full Audioholic
I love the title, and like the jist of this. In spirit I agree...

However, choosing audio reproduction gear with an intentional bias is like adding salt to every plate of food you're served. Many people do it, but depending upon the chef, you may already be starting with the right amount of salt - or even too much.

For those imperfect content sources (of which there are many), an adjustable bias (eq, signal processor, etc.) can help tame the warts. To that end, I keep a pair of solid mid-fi "forgiving" speakers connected on speaker B output that I can switch to.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
A tangent...

From the article...

My main audio rig is a beast from a different jungle. My Levinson No. 39 CD player, Audio Research power amp, Conrad Johnson preamp, Linn turntable and Gallo Nucleus Solo speakers are capable of creating an amazingly detailed, dynamic and transparent recreation of the audio event.
This brings up an interesting issue for the author of the article. How is this stereo known to be transparent? I belive percieved accuracy vs. absolute accuracy are different things.

I have spent much time listening to non-amplfied instruments and voices in varous venues/acoustics in order to have a usable reference for subjective evaluation. The loudspeakers I use in my main listening room/system sound 'transparent' too me perceptually. By this, I mean that select purist acoustic recordings seem 'real' when played. However, I realize that my main loudspeakers are anything but 'transparent' in actuality. What standards exist to ensure recordings are accurate? None to my knowledge. While I employed many objective procedures based entirely upon measurements into the design -- I relied on subjective design principles to voice the speakers. I used my perception as well as several test subjects' perceptions(test subjects were required to have previous experience with non-amplified music performance) using a various genre selection of purist recordings(each track set to a specific SPL that was decied prior to tests) that I found to be represenative of my favorite pieces. Subjects filled out score sheets. The voicing that produced the most transparent 'sounding' playback for me and the subjects was not the flattest response variation. I have a headphone(Sony MDR-7506) set that is extremely accurate. I basicly repeated some experiments mentioned by John Dunlavy:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Dunlavy+Audio+Labs+7506&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=6mts8f$507@jamesv.warren.mentorg.com&rnum=4

After Dunlavy's testament, I decided to try the same type of thing. I have set up omnipolar measurement microphones(response linear within 1db within the primary audible band) in front of various sources(voices, music, animals, etc.). I stood at the same distance as the microphones. I adjusted the volume level of the headphone set as close as possible to the event in front of me. I removed and replaced the headphones listening to the live feed(no FX or EQ). The headphone set sounds almost just like the sources(tonally). Yet, I do NOT favor the sound of this headphone for listenig to most commercial music. It does not sound perceptually accurate on most commercial recordings too me! Is this odd?

I'll just throw around a few ideas....

- Non-linear microphones(these are alarmingly popular in the recording industry!) used for recording.

- F/x and/or E.Q. used in commercial recording.

- Most recordings(includig purist recordings using minimal microphones that have a linear frequency response) are made from a distance that is NOT represenative of the standard listening distance that most people will be used to hearing these acoustic events. The treble band is rolled off as distance is increased as well as reflective sounds within the room increase their dominant effect on the overall sound signature as distance from source is increased.

- Many people may have little experience and/or knowledge of how non-amplified performances should sound.

-Chris
 
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gregz

gregz

Full Audioholic
Second thought:

Like Colulmbo said: "Oh, yeah. There was just ONE more thing..."

Everyone has different hearing response curves, and many have either damaged or genetic hearing loss at higher frequencies.

As such, different speakers will sound neutral to different people.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
gregz said:
Second thought:

Like Colulmbo said: "Oh, yeah. There was just ONE more thing..."

Everyone has different hearing response curves, and many have either damaged or genetic hearing loss at higher frequencies.

As such, different speakers will sound neutral to different people.
If you by 'neutral' you mean absolute accuracy -- that is illogical.

An accurate transducer will present them with the same signal as is normally heard. Their ears are going to apply the same transfer function regardless if the signal is produced live or by reproduction system.

-Chris
 
gregz

gregz

Full Audioholic
WmAx, we posted at the same time.

Interesting and detailed insight.

After reading your post, I realized that my reference CDs I use to audition speakers contain quite a bit of piano. My father was a concert pianist, and I grew up listening to it live. My wife, however, played flute in band and she tends to home in on the wind instruments when she's listening for a believable reproduction.

As for the headphones, I listened to a Stereophile CD that had recorded a car race with two microphones placed on sides of a styrofoam sphere. I buy the theory that recording for headphones is best done differently than recording for speakers.

As for the purist recordings, I find the soundstage to be just as believable from a slight distance as if I were seated at a performance - as well as close miking and mixing to sound like you're somehow on the edge of the stage with the artists. I listen to recordings of both techniques with equal enjoyment.

One further comment to add to the discussion: I've either been very lucky with my CD choices, or there does seem to be a somewhat established standard for well recorded music, as most of my CD's in my "audiophile" collection produce a very believable reproduction. I think minimal processing and mixing is the key, that when deviated from opens up Pandora's box.
 
gregz

gregz

Full Audioholic
Chris, we must stop posting at the same time.

Your comment is, of course, true. Anomalies in hearing would be self-correcting in listening to audio reproduction by definition.
 
P

Pat D

Audioholic
Accuracy and Pleasantness

gene said:
Accuracy and Pleasantness: these two things seem to be the main goals of a system for reproducing music. I find this rather less confusing than a division between cerebral and emotional. How does one identify whether someone is listening cerebrally or emotionally? Why does Mr. Cornwall identify certain parameters with cerebral listening and others with emotional?

What, for example is particularly "cerebral" about the following:

"Tonal truthfulness, clarity in detail and realism in micro-dynamic contrast are all key parameters for a satisfying music reproduction system. What is unique here is the focus on recreating an historical event. The classic audiophile places great importance on hearing details such as breath patterns, valve clacks, or the echo and decay of the sound reflected from the back of the performance venue."

Nothing, as far as I can see. For the most part, in live performances, we don't hear all those valve clacks and guitar fingering noises. So, this is a particular kind of taste, but has nothing much to do with accuracy or recreating an event.

And why are the following any less cerebral?

"A “musicophile”, in contrast, listens at an emotional level. Think here of someone enamored with pop music, a listener who likes to play it loud. The music is physical, often accompanied by spontaneous dancing, bobbing and singing. Physical impact, clean frequency extension and macro-dynamic control are likely to be critical. The “musicophile” listener is likely to be attracted to multi-channel music recordings, recordings that are often re-releases of music originally composed, recorded and released in two-channel. Why? Because there is more to hear!"

This describes someone's taste, in part. However, if one is really interested in recreating an event, then it seems multi-channel is needed, so multi-channel should belong to the cerebral category! Really, the article doesn't make much rational sense.

But then, the following is actually an admission that the categories the author has set up are nonsense since it contradicts the schema he has just tried to set up.

"Naturally one should not assume that rock fans are not concerned with sound staging and micro-dynamics, or that jazz fans don’t listen loud and dance around."

I won't go into the meaningless jargon!

Accuracy and pleasantness, on the other hand, can be identified. At least, it one can find some measurable parameters as to what accuracy is, including applying psychoacoustic parameters to it (in other words, what people can hear). As well, is possible to ask people what they prefer in sound, as has been done for years at the NRC. One can even correlate what is found pleasant by many people with measurements.

What comes out of a system depends, of course, on the recording as well as the system itself. Assuming accurate electronics (which should be obtainable without too much difficulty), what we hear is influenced by the speakers, the room acoustics, and the set up, and by the recordings themselves. I expect my system to sound good with most recordings, and it does. Of course, I try to avoid bad recordings and have for the most part, succeeded, but then most of my recordings are classical and I often do a little research in the reviews. If the Penguin Guide says the recording is bad, it probably is--I often don't rate either the performances or the sound the same way as they do, but we usually agree on bad sound.

One is likely to rate recording quality somewhat differently with different speakers, even very good speakers. Just which recordings sound best will vary with different speakers. I know some try to tell you that a good recording will sound good on ANY speaker, but this simply cannot be true. Whatever a speaker does to the sound, it will do it to every recording played over it.

As well, I have to disagree with Mr. Cornwall's conclusions. A good speaker should be a good speaker, whether for classical, jazz, rock, or videos.

What Mr. Cornwall's article does do is present various things a person might think about, just as ambiguous and contradictory astrological advice does. If one picks out what applies to them and ignores the contradictory information, they feel they can identify. This may be useful and comforting as long as one does not really take it seriously. ;)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
gregz said:
Everyone has different hearing response curves, and many have either damaged or genetic hearing loss at higher frequencies.

As such, different speakers will sound neutral to different people.

From the research at NCR:
http://miragespeakers.com/nrc_story.shtml


API’s research and development team is guided by Ian Paisley. Andrew Welker is the head engineer for Mirage products. Their ongoing development program is based upon the pioneering psycho-acoustic research Ian helped carry out in conjunction with the Canadian “National Research Council”, known as the NRC. The knowledge gained during the NRC study served as an important resource and starting point for Mirage’s evolution to Omnipolar products.

Based on the results of the NRC’s research, Mirage engineers determined that there were three characteristics common to the speakers that consistently achieved high scores in the listening trials. It was determined that listeners preferred speakers that could produce the whole range of frequencies (Wide Bandwidth), equally efficiently (Flat Response), both on and off axis (Wide Dispersion), clearly (No Distortion).

• Ian Paisley and Andrew Welker are the designers of Mirage speakers.
• Ian was involved in the famous National Research Council speaker tests.
• These tests determined that the characteristics that people preferred in speakers were:
- Low Distortion
- Flat Response and wide bandwidth
- Wide Dispersion
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I did, in part, consider this research when engineering my loudspeakers. A flat power response(total dispersed radiation) was one of the top priorities I set out to have as linear as possible.

But when referring to the theoretical perfectly flat frequency response - this did not address the non-linear frequency response common in today's commercial recordings.

A playback chain with perfect flat frequency response will not produce flat response playback of the original event when the recording is non-flat.

This is why we need a standards system(dictating microphone positions, microphone response, etc.) used in recording.

-Chris

mtrycrafts said:
From the research at NCR:
http://miragespeakers.com/nrc_story.shtml


API’s research and development team is guided by Ian Paisley. Andrew Welker is the head engineer for Mirage products. Their ongoing development program is based upon the pioneering psycho-acoustic research Ian helped carry out in conjunction with the Canadian “National Research Council”, known as the NRC. The knowledge gained during the NRC study served as an important resource and starting point for Mirage’s evolution to Omnipolar products.

Based on the results of the NRC’s research, Mirage engineers determined that there were three characteristics common to the speakers that consistently achieved high scores in the listening trials. It was determined that listeners preferred speakers that could produce the whole range of frequencies (Wide Bandwidth), equally efficiently (Flat Response), both on and off axis (Wide Dispersion), clearly (No Distortion).

• Ian Paisley and Andrew Welker are the designers of Mirage speakers.
• Ian was involved in the famous National Research Council speaker tests.
• These tests determined that the characteristics that people preferred in speakers were:
- Low Distortion
- Flat Response and wide bandwidth
- Wide Dispersion
 
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Resident Loser

Resident Loser

Senior Audioholic
So much to disagree with...

...and so little time!

To preface, if it ain't in the source, it ain't...period.

Too many variables...re-create the venue...what venue?

The performance is the point, everything else is irrelevant...

Audiophile or gearhead?

Two separate systems? Why?

jimHJJ(...sorry, the whole thing is claptrap IMHO...)
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
WmAx said:
...the non-linear frequency response common in today's commercial recordings...This is why we need a standards system(dictating microphone positions, microphone response, etc.) used in recording.

-Chris
Gad, sir, do you realize what you are saying? If such dangerous, radical notions as yours were to gain acceptance, the public would hear what the no-talent pop tarts du jour actually sound like!! And then where would the recording industry be?? :p
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
WmAx said:
A playback chain with perfect flat frequency response will not produce flat response playback of the original event when the recording is non-flat.

This is why we need a standards system(dictating microphone positions, microphone response, etc.) used in recording.

-Chris
Hard to disagree with a true statement :D

Maybe we'd have better music, better artists :eek: etc
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
The concept of high fidelity is spread over two areas: Home playback and Recording. There are no standards of performance for either. There may be some valid justification for creating standards in the recording area, but for more than half a century, no such effort has been made. Perhaps people in the industry have their reasons. Monitor speakers, for instance, vary from one studio to another. This, together with the recording engineers' various listening tastes and preferences, account for much of the disparities among the levels and frequency responses that are in the record mixes that go into the LPs and CDs we buy from whatever musical genre. I won't even mention the differing qualities of microphones used, how many are used, their placements, mixing consoles and mastering techniques.

To the ordinary layman who just wants to enyoy his CDs or LPs at home, what happens behind those mixes in CDs and LPs are often just another mystery.

Home playback is the contemplation of this hobby. And different hobbysts have their biases and preferrences to bear on their enjoynment of this hobby. Some hobbysts may share the same likes and dislikes for musicians and musical genre, but their sound systems certainly wouldn't sound alike, certainly not in different rooms. What sounds great to one hobbyst may sound thrash to another and vice-versa. I've been into this hobby so long to know that my preference for strong defined bass can be considered boomy by others, or that their setting for controlled bass is insufficient for my taste. There is no right or wrong. Each one creates and walks the path he chooses in this hobby so long as he attains the levels of sonic nirvana he alone can achieve for himself. Ofcouse there is such a thing as a proper and improper set-up, but that is often a technical consideration in making those home playback gears work their best under the environment they are in.

Great sounds, OTH, can only be achieved from live performances in an environment that makes great sounds possible. Like in a music hall, church or theatre designed specifically to enhance the accoustics of live music. (Not an arena or stadium.) That's entirely my take on this. Some people would luxuriate in a rock concert held in a open air stadium, considering it great sounds. Not my piece of cake. Firstly, I do not like Rock, nor open air performances. So it would seem that even the notion of what constitute great sounds can be a matter of personal bias and preference.

AV_PHILE
 
P

Pat D

Audioholic
Unregistered said:
The concept of high fidelity is spread over two areas: Home playback and Recording. There are no standards of performance for either. There may be some valid justification for creating standards in the recording area, but for more than half a century, no such effort has been made. Perhaps people in the industry have their reasons. Monitor speakers, for instance, vary from one studio to another. This, together with the recording engineers' various listening tastes and preferences, account for much of the disparities among the levels and frequency responses that are in the record mixes that go into the LPs and CDs we buy from whatever musical genre. I won't even mention the differing qualities of microphones used, how many are used, their placements, mixing consoles and mastering techniques.

To the ordinary layman who just wants to enyoy his CDs or LPs at home, what happens behind those mixes in CDs and LPs are often just another mystery.

Home playback is the contemplation of this hobby. And different hobbysts have their biases and preferrences to bear on their enjoynment of this hobby. Some hobbysts may share the same likes and dislikes for musicians and musical genre, but their sound systems certainly wouldn't sound alike, certainly not in different rooms. What sounds great to one hobbyst may sound thrash to another and vice-versa. I've been into this hobby so long to know that my preference for strong defined bass can be considered boomy by others, or that their setting for controlled bass is insufficient for my taste. There is no right or wrong. Each one creates and walks the path he chooses in this hobby so long as he attains the levels of sonic nirvana he alone can achieve for himself. Ofcouse there is such a thing as a proper and improper set-up, but that is often a technical consideration in making those home playback gears work their best under the environment they are in.

Great sounds, OTH, can only be achieved from live performances in an environment that makes great sounds possible. Like in a music hall, church or theatre designed specifically to enhance the accoustics of live music. (Not an arena or stadium.) That's entirely my take on this. Some people would luxuriate in a rock concert held in a open air stadium, considering it great sounds. Not my piece of cake. Firstly, I do not like Rock, nor open air performances. So it would seem that even the notion of what constitute great sounds can be a matter of personal bias and preference.

AV_PHILE
I think you are very well informed.

Can you relate any of this to cerebral and emotional listening? I can't make any logical sense out of that part of the article. Indeed, it seems to me to be nonsense.
 

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