goodman

goodman

Full Audioholic
New high resolution audio formats will make their appearance with Blu-ray and HD DVD. With new audio formats on the horizon, what is the prognosis for SACD and DVD-Audio?

What is the chance that the new hi-rez players will also play SACD and DVD-A? Might Sony, e.g., include SACD capability with their Blu-ray player?
 
Nomo

Nomo

Audioholic Samurai
Bump.

I'm also curious what the future of the "old" formats will hold.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
NomoSony said:
Bump.

I'm also curious what the future of the "old" formats will hold.
Based on current events/perspective --- I'de be genuinely suprised if ANY of the new audio formats took off, considering the severe REDUCTION in features/versatality that comes with these new audio disc formats.

PROS:
-Multiple Channel Capability

CONS:
-Can't use external DSP devices with digital links, excepting special proprietary ones.

-Can't use external DAC devices.

-Can't rip music to hard drive for a music server.

-Can't rip music to use on a portable audio device.

-Will take well over a decade for any new format to become a 'common' format that can be played nearly everywhere.

The CD format PROS and CONS are exactly reversed from the above.

-Chris
 
M

mustang_steve

Senior Audioholic
My feelings exactly....once a proper format is relaeased, I feel it will take off...but I actually think these high definition standards will remain audiophile material for all time until the useage restrictions are dropped....then and only then will it be worth adopting at the mainstream level.

Only reason I say that is when little billy buys a disc and he can't copy it to his iPod, he's not going to buy any more of those discs....proof in point are the websites that already tell you which CDs have non-standard copy protections on them....

....really, I'm rather concerned with where it is all going....because I don't see these guys thinking...all I've seen are the cutting of technology at the kness with DVD-A and SACD, feeble attempts to copy protect CDs...which often leave audible distorion on even my $400 stereo....really it's sad...so to me, I really don't think they will do right just because their track record says they can't. All they will do is cry over how bad the pirates are and keep coming out with crippled formats.
 
Shadow_Ferret

Shadow_Ferret

Audioholic Chief
I think the point is, high quality audio is dying. There are the audiophiles who will buy DVD-Audio and SACD, but the mainstream public won't. The mainstream public believes CDs are high quality enough and in fact, seem to be flocking to even less quality MP3s. But then if you're listening to music on an IPOD or one of those $100 boomboxes, you don't really care about quality anyway.
 
M

mustang_steve

Senior Audioholic
It's the convenience of digital music formats (MP3/WMA/OGG/etc) that are buying them over...if there was a high quality digital music store, that would possibly fix all of it, especially with the advent of 60GB and soon, even larger MP3 players.

I know...I have my MP3 player as well...given I use 320Kbps only....but I still have one.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
If there are better resolution formats for audio than SACD and DVD-A, then I believe that audiophiles will drop the old for the new. Neither format has taken off, and I believe that a new format will NOT take off either. Compared to those who are happy with CD audio and worse, the numbers of people who are interested in true audiophile music is very small. There is no money in it for manufacturers and a very small market.

I expect that what market there is, will go for whatever the best is: Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, and drop SACD and DVD-A like a ton of bricks.

I can't believe people complain about MP3... It is convenient and easy to use. It is a tool for playing music back and is perfectly good for car audio, walkmen, and background music. I've never seen a serious listening environment use a MP3 playback device as a primary source. Seriously, it's like complaining about cassettes sucking so much compared to records. Of course, not many record players were designed to go into cars, or be jogged around with. But, not many DVD-A players are designed for that either.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Shadow_Ferret said:
But then if you're listening to music on an IPOD or one of those $100 boomboxes, you don't really care about quality anyway.
This is not a wholly accurate statement. I, as well as others, use portable devices such as the Ipod and DO care about sound quality. Your broad statement is not true.

-Chris
 
G

guess88

Junior Audioholic
WmAx said:
This is not a wholly accurate statement. I, as well as others, use portable devices such as the Ipod and DO care about sound quality. Your broad statement is not true.

-Chris

I think the main part there is that it's played back on a $100 boombox. SQ's pretty lacking in those...
 
M

mustang_steve

Senior Audioholic
depends on if that $100 was after putting some tangband full-range drivers and some reinforcement/fiberfill in it :D
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
I'm dismayed to find that the DVD-A focus seems to be shifting to marketing "Dual Discs." I went to buy the new one from Judas Priest today, but all I can find in the stores here is the Dual Disc version, no regular CD. Bummer- if there's no regular CD I'll never get to even hear it. :(
 
S

sox4cows

Audiophyte
Perhaps more to the point, there's little evidence that DVD-Audio/SACD sounds better than the equivalent audio at CD samplerate/samplesize, and I've seen a few recent double-blind tests failing to show any difference between 96khz/24bit and the same audio resampled down to 48khz/16bit.

I'm willing to believe some people might hear a difference... but I just finished doing my own comparisons betweeen a couple of high-end SACD players (including a Sony S9000ES, supposedly a "reference SA-CD player") and their audio outputs downsampled to CD audio rates; I was unable to distinguish between them. Though I could easily differentiate between 44.1khz/14bit and anything above that, so I'm not totally deaf.

Maybe my equipment wasn't good enough, or my ears not good enough, but that's the reality of it. I'm not going to invest any more money in my home theater setup anytime soon, and my ears aren't going to magically improve themselves overnight. If I have to spend $5,000 more just to hear a slight improvement, it's not worth it.

The multichannel features are interesting, and I've love to see them used--when they make ripping SA-CDs practical. Currently I do it the "analog" way using an external ADC + oversampling at 192khz, with results indistinguishable from the original audio... except for the loss of the extra channels, but I only own one SA-CD which has more than two channels.

Why the interest in ripping? I haven't used "real" CDs for years since I copied them all to hard drives (using lossless flac compression), and I've recently transferred all my DVDs to hard disk. Much more convenient, no more scratches or hunting for that one disc I just can't seem to find, identical audio quality (PCM audio going into my receiver or a separate DAC). Also makes it easy to transfer MP3s to a portable player.

It's not like I haven't paid for the content as I own all the CDs/DVDs. I just want to make it convenient to use. Disk space is really cheap right now and getting cheaper by the minute, and I see no reason not to take advantage of this.

I wouldn't mind if the DRM nonsense did anything positive for the consumer. It doesn't. It's just a roadblock to features which would actually make life easier for the consumer, such as portable audio, music/movie downloads from the web, and storage on a HTPC.

Sorry for the rant... but the whole issue of "why isn't SA-CD/DVD-Audio catching on?" is moot. They're not catching on because they're not actually an improvement! It's merely a way for the record companies to try and bilk money from the consumer.

DVDs caught on because they're more convenient (and clearly better quality) than VHS tapes. The next generation is going to be a harder sell, especially if they try to "improve" the DRM to the point where it's unrippable.

DVD-Video, SA-CD or DVD-Audio done right would've made it easy for consumers to transfer the content to other devices they own, in digital form, without paying extra money or jumping through hoops. I don't mind the hoops, but I'm used to it... and I have a good sense of humor.
 
rgriffin25

rgriffin25

Moderator
Here is an idea!

Maybe we should put Bose or Monster Cable in charge of marketing the Hi-rez music. Sales would sky-rocket... Oh wait, then some of us would boycot them for the simple fact that we hate these companies. So that won't work!

I really think it is all in the Marketing. Can any of you tell me the last time you saw a DVD audio commercial? Has Paul Harvey stated that SACD is the best sounding audio format he has ever heard? I don't think I have ever heard any advertisements for either format. There is not a retail chain out there that does their part to market either of these products. You can't tell me the hole Best Buy has for their Hi-Rez music counts! I have gone into several music stores and asked where are your SACD / DVD-A discs? You can probably guess what the response was.. Umm do you mean DVD? Whats that? I think we have one.. NO. You might try this store... etc.

So whats my point you ask?? I think if there was any kind of push in the marketing side of this controversy we wouldn't be calling them dead right now.
 
b_panther_g

b_panther_g

Audioholic
My prediction...
IMHO the release of the HD-DVD formats makes SACD and DVD-Audio pointless. Both HD-DVD formats have approved some form of lossless audio standard which is superior to both DVD-Audio and SACD.

There is no point in having a special audio only format that is of a lower quality.

My prediction is that SACD and DVD-Audio will go the way of the mini-disc...


About Hi-Fi in general...
Others have mentioned that hi-fi is on the decline. Unfortunately I agree. But I don't think it's because of lossy formats like MP3.

There really hasn't been much real advancement in a while. Just look at the most popular hi-fi magazines. Just about every month there is a new “greatest of all time” product. Or some minor update of a 3 year old product supposedly represents a quantum leap forward in technology and sound reproduction.

Now listen to the top 10 most popular CDs for each month for the past year. Even with the millions of $ that goes into production for each of these CDs, you'd be lucky to find a handful without serious technical flaws (i.e. clipping, too much compression, etc.)

Hi-Fi is dieing. But IMHO it's because we, the consumers, keep buying more and more crappy goods. Because we keep buying bad sounding CDs, almost no producer will take the time to produce better quality CDs. Because we keep buying weird sounding speakers, why would anyone in their right mind bother making a more realistic, honest, and accurate speaker?

We tell companies we want their crap, because we keep paying for it. We are helping in the decline of hi-fi.

Just my thoughts.

Enjoy,
B
 
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M

mustang_steve

Senior Audioholic
Good point. My wishes for hi-fi was for the following:

More efficient amps: We already have amps with distortion levels that are ridiculously low (0.0004 was the lowest I have seen as of yet). Let's stop waxing the brass in the distortion room, and move on to making the amp more efficient. Yes, there will be a step back at first, in terms of distortion, but that's how things work...when your at the top of the mountain, you have to climb back down to go up the next one.

STANDARIZATION: I cannot say this enough...imagine a chorus singing that word over and over again s I type this...that is how bad I wnat to emphasize this. Having two hi-fi formats right now (DVD-a and SACD) is not helping things, although it does line the equipment maker's pockets since they have to sell two or even three disc players. Standardization is a must if audio is to advance. If we are using the same transport, then we should get backwards compatibility. In my opinion, it should be assured backwards compatibility from the mid-range products on up, including our hi-fi formats.

Speakers: Very little improvement...and too much marketing spiel. Problem is we are nearly at the pinnacle of a driver design that is nearly 80 years old! We have ribbon drivers that have shown what they can do...we should start seeing more of these. The moving ccone loudspeaker still has it's place due to being a great design...but maybe horns or ribbons will be the next thing, who knows? All I ahve seen are baby steps, and lots of weird experimentations (those are good though).

Cables: we need a fixed standard on cables, just to end this "x cable is great, yous sucks" junk. This would yield the single best advancement, since all gear could in theory be specced with those cables, and thus be designed to perform best around them. Nothing exotic here, just good ole RG-6 and zip cord. No need to get crazy and tell everyone "our speakers were designed around gold plated titanium, with symmetrical diamond studs on teh jackets"...that's just crazy talk :p

The biggest advance is in surround sound, with better processing methods and such.

In the end it's a money game...a good part of audio companies either think their stuff sounds pleasing (thus no desire to improve), or they don't care about anything but their wallets. Marketing isn't about telling your product as it is, it's about making people want your product....which is where things went wrong...people are hyping poly dome tweeters a audiophile gear, pressed paper cones with paper surrounds as quality, and amps that put out 2000w despite only taking 6w from the wall (computer speakers in this case).

In the end it's mostly about profits. Part of why I am so interested in learning to make my own gear is how tired I am of the lack of truly good gear at reasonable prices. Like the decline of quality stereo receivers....the only ones left are either poor quality, or massively overpriced.
 
HookedOnSound

HookedOnSound

Full Audioholic
Mustang Steve,

I definitely agree with you on standardization and efficiency.

There is no reason why digital amplifiers cannot achieve acceptable performance. If they were to couple that with more sensitive/efficient speakers, most of the distortion caused by digital amps would be mute due to reduced strain of high output stages.

The reason I think standardization is going nowhere is because the technology companies don't make money on standardization, period. They make money on the 'transactions'. You can substitute the audio industry with whatever industry you choose: computer, telecom etc.

If they can come out with new formats every 3-5 years, they can sell their equip. at higher margins and the whole industry can simply "repackage" the same media with small costs. I can only image that Pink Floyd will be available into as many flavors as ice cream. 10 years from now at the local music shop (if they still exist), you'll be asked: Hello Sir, Do you want your Pink Floyd in Vinyl, CD, SACD, DVD-Audio, HD-DVD, etc...? That'll be $23 please."

As long as consumers are complacent about the technology evolution, we've got our pants down to our ankles getting it up the a$$.

And don't think that relying on regulatory bodies like the FCC are helping the matter.

My opinions are simply just that, opinions.

History will judge our mistakes.

Have a great day!
 
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