Something I'd like to see: Ultimate Cable Faceoff

jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
There are definitely some cable faceoffs and stuff floating around, but I have yet to find one that is really comprehensive or all encompassing. Some are detailed, but feature very few brands. I think if a BIG test could be put together, it could solve a lot of mysteries about cables. I think the best way to do a comparison would be: Budget (lowest priced for all companies), Moderate (median price for all companies), and Audiophile (Top end for all companies).

Here are some brands I'd like to see compared:

Moster Cable
Audioquest
Audiotruth
Magnan
Kimber Kable
MIT Cables
Synergistic Research
Tara Labs
JPS Labs
Stealth Cable
Nordost
Outlaw Audio
Acoustic Research
Elco Audio
Esoteric Audio
Cardas
Siltech
Harmonic Technology
PS Audio
Radio Shack (For good measure)
Silver Audio
Sonic Horizon
Transparent Audio
FM Acoustics

Any other ideas?
 
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JVC

JVC

Banned
I would like to see something that PROVES that one cable is better than another.
I believe a $20 cable is better than a $3 cable, because of the shielding and gold connectors. But, I DO NOT believe that a $100+ cable is any better than a $20. I believe that with the $100+ cables you are buying a name and/or a status symbol. :)
 
A

av_phile

Senior Audioholic
What I would like to see is a regulatory agency that can enforce standards in the manufacture and marketing of cables so consumers get some measure of protection from opportunist manufacturers exploiting uninformed and gullible audiophiles.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Jaxvon - interesting that you list only the brands that spend a lot on advertising. In fact the list you make contains none of the cables that I would consider world-class performers that are good values as well, such as Jaden, Empirical, Ridge Street, Audience, Bolder and others. What you have here is a list of larger cable companies that have the money to spend on advertising because they are doing high-volume manufacturing, sell mostly through dealers and have high margins on their products.

As for technical benefits of high-performance cables, there are measurable differences that correlate to more accurate music delivery. You just need to look in the right places for this information. There is a lot of mis-information out there that understandably confuses consumers. Regulation is not the answer. The problem is that every lord helmet and Harry thinks he can design cables...... It is easier than designing components, so everyone gets on the bandwagon.
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
Truths...

I agree. I was most definitely having an idiodic moment. However, I still think it would be a good idea to compare tons of cables to show that most of them aren't very different. And yes, the only reason I know about most of those companies is because of advertising and whatnot. I know that most of what you can find on a cable manufacturer website is BS. Very few cable companies ever talk about real issues like capacitance, inductance, etc. One I can think of (but is still overpriced, considering it's a massive load of copper) that actually does discuss these issues is FM Acoustics.

Also, Mr. Unregistered User, I'd like to know where you found that technical information. I would enjoy doing more reading on factual stuff.
 
A

av_phile

Senior Audioholic
Unregistered said:
Jaxvon - interesting that you list only the brands that spend a lot on advertising. In fact the list you make contains none of the cables that I would consider world-class performers that are good values as well, such as Jaden, Empirical, Ridge Street, Audience, Bolder and others. What you have here is a list of larger cable companies that have the money to spend on advertising because they are doing high-volume manufacturing, sell mostly through dealers and have high margins on their products.

As for technical benefits of high-performance cables, there are measurable differences that correlate to more accurate music delivery. You just need to look in the right places for this information. There is a lot of mis-information out there that understandably confuses consumers. Regulation is not the answer. The problem is that every lord helmet and Harry thinks he can design cables...... It is easier than designing components, so everyone gets on the bandwagon.
Just cruious...if every "lord helmet and Harry..can design cables..." pls enlighten why regulation would not work. Thanks.
 
H

huberddp

Audiophyte
I think reviews of cables should be used as a reference only. Cables need be auditioned, to see if they work well in your own system. To me there is a big audible difference from one cable to another. The better your system is, the bigger the difference.

I have a friend who is an electrical engineer. He used to clam that all cable sound the same and that it is impossible for them to sound different. One day several audiophile friends got together and swapped a few different cables for him. His mouth almost dropped to the floor. He could not believe what he was hearing. He is now a true believer.

You should test cables in your system before making a final decision. Only purchase from a dealer who offers a 30 day money back guaranty. This will allow you to audition them in your home and save you a lot of headaches and money.
 
H

huberddp

Audiophyte
JVC said:
I would like to see something that PROVES that one cable is better than another.
I believe a $20 cable is better than a $3 cable, because of the shielding and gold connectors. But, I DO NOT believe that a $100+ cable is any better than a $20. I believe that with the $100+ cables you are buying a name and/or a status symbol. :)
The proof is in the pudding. You need to audition several brands in your own system. If you can't hear the difference between cables, it may be time for you to upgrade to better components.
 
Dan

Dan

Audioholic Chief
Sigh, here we go again on the old double blind test debate. It is hard enough to compare one brand of cable to zip cord let alone the myriad of cables listed above. A large number of trials with a large number of listeners would be needed particularly to statistically prove that there is NO difference between two cables (less to prove there is). In another thread Rip Van Woofer gave a citation of a review article in JAES which I have read. While as a review of double blind testing on audio equipment it seems to cover the available literature, the paper does not adequately summarize the articles it reviews. This review also does not provide a meta analysis (a way of compiling the data of multple studies to provide greater statistical power) of the studies included in the review. The article claims that very few studies have ever shown a significant difference between the equipment tested and when a difference was shown it was very weak.

I would love to see the results of a meta analysis or any test showing a significant difference especially between wires. I am myself skeptical since if there was a difference, a company making such a cable would be in a rush to tout the difference a la Pepsi in the 1980s. Such lack of advertising does not provide converse proof however.

Anybody wanna give it the old college try?
 
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U

Unregistered

Guest
Cable Madness

It would take quite a bit of money, but I would love to see every cable "un-masked." In other words, it would be interesting to take each of these high end cables apart -- take the sheathing off -- and see what's inside these "mysterious" scientific wonders. I would also love to see a set of specs on each cable for comparison. Be interesting to see if there are patterns in the specs -- as I expect there would be. Take the mystery out of these things -- they are only wire! As for anecdotal reports about speaker cables sounding so different that an electrical engineer's mouth would drop open:
There are many reasons one will "hear" differences between cables. John Dunlavy of Dunlavy Audio Labs used to bring Audiophiles and Audio critics to his lab and do a demonstration where he would let his listeners listen to a system with 12 AWG Zip cord, then "replace" them with exotic looking speaker cables and the listeners would report hearing large differences. The problem was -- the cables were never really changed. The mind plays tricks. It is called "the placebo effect." When your mind thinks there should be a change, it will "hear" one. However, There are plenty of reasons to hear actual changes between speaker cables. I've replaced oxidized 12 AWG speaker cable with clean and have heard rather astounding changes. Oxidization is a huge problem. So, if you replace old speaker cables with new, you are bound to hear large improvements, whether you replace your cables with 12 AWG Zip cord or Nordost Valhallas. So, how many of these reports are due to an audio enthusiast replacing older oxidized cables with new and attributing the changes to the "magic" in the new cable rather than simply the "new-ness" of the new cable? There is also some evidence that if you raise capacitance high enough, your speaker cables will roll off the high end. This could sound very pleasing, depending on the room or system. In an overbright room, with some kinds of digital equipment, or with some metal dome tweeters, it might be a relief to roll off the high end. But, this is no different than using a tone control -- why pay a lot of money for a cable with high capacitance to roll off your high end? Also, with the high end rolled off, listeners may report that the mid-range "opened up" or that there was an increase in bass. This is just a psycho-acoustic effect from rolling off the high end. Could you hear the difference between a cable with flat reponse and one with the high end rolled off? Sure, but -- again -- no reason to pay a lot of money for this little parlor trick. What if you replaced an old oxidized cable with a new cable with the high end rolled off due to high capacitance? Again -- you'd probably hear quite a bit of difference, but do you need to pay a lot of money for this? My answer, again, would be, "no." There is also an assumption that our ears are the same 24/7. This is a bad assumption. When your ears are fatigued, your system will sound completely different than when your ears are rested. Replacing speaker cables forces you to take a break and listen with ears that are at least a little refreshed, but if that isn't enough, there's the "cable cook" scam. It has become commonplace among "high end" cable manufacturers to recommend you give your cables time to "burn in." This, IMO, is a misappropration of the term. Speakers need time to "break in." So, audio enthusiasts were primed and ready to accept the concept of "burn in." But, with regard to cable, what this does is force the customer to rest his/her ears for three or four days while his cables "burn in." How many of these amazing cable stories are due to an audio enthusiast who has listened to his/her system too much and has fatigued his ears to the point where his system sounds like it has problems, replaces cables, gives his ears three or four days of rest and comes back to hear -- wow -- the system sounds SO MUCH BETTER! Of course it does, but it likely has little to do with the cables. In a few months, this listener will be fatigued again and looking for even "better" cables. Cable "burn in" may be one of the best scams ever invented. Then there is that age old bugaboo, "peer pressure." Which "audiophile" wants to be the one to step up and admit he cannot hear the differences between cables? If the mind can make one "hear" differences when the cables haven't even been changed, it is no stretch to assume the mind could produce "audible" changes due to this fear -- and this fear runs rampant in the audio community. Who wants to be accused of having tin ears? Finally, there is also evidence that if your cables are too thin, the resulting resistance could cost you detail over the audio spectrum. You may be able to hear differences between, say, 24 AWG and 10 AWG speaker cable, so make sure you have the right gauge for the job and be conservative if you want the peace of mind that "overkill" offers. It costs a little more to use higher gauge cable, but nothing like what the "high end" cable manufacturers are charging. There are a few manufacturers popping up recently that offer cables at what seems to be a reasonable price, but IMO, they are only offering cables that you could easily make yourself for a fraction of the cost. They only seem reasonable compared to the Nordosts, Kimbers and Transparents of the world. Excellent speaker cables are *not* difficult to construct, nor are the materials particularly expensive, unless you simply want to indulge yourself. There are manufacturers/supply houses you can find on the web who offer well constructed cables at reasonable prices and who charge a little more than what you would pay for the raw materials. If you don't want to construct them yourself, IMO, there's no harm in paying a little premium to have someone else take the time to do it for you. Shop around, ask questions, do some research, but there's no reason to pay a lot of money for cables.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Cable Face OFF

FYI- the Absolute Sound just did a fairly major two part cable article in which they compared about 16 (I think) speaker cables- so if you want to read about layer upon layer of dark nothingness, it'd be a good read.

I have two systems, in my HT system, I use Sound King 12 ga from Parts Express. Sound is great!!

In my music system, which is a Roksan Kandy amp running Thiel speakers, I made my own cables from Cat 5e data cable. A 20' pair cost me about $75, but I prettied them up with a braided sheath. The sound is excellent- up there with some $20-30K+ systems that I auditioned. Total cost for CD system including the Rotel RCD-1072, amp, speakers (which I lucked into used), and all cables and interconnects was about $3,000.

FYI- speakers I auditioned included Focal/JMlab Utopias, Sonus Farber Cremonas, Wilson Sophias, as well as B&W 700 series, Paradigms, Vienna Acoustics, and so forth. Electronics included Rogue Tube stuff, Krell, Arcam, NAD, Musical Fidelity, and Rotel - so my ears were fairly well calibrated. My system sounds as good in my music room as anything I heard in a high end store. BTW- I did hour plus auditions using my own CD's and did many as in over 10.

My conclusion is that really great sound need not be expensive if one does one's homework.
 
J

jjadams

Enthusiast
Something I would like to see:Ultimate Cable faceoff

www.bettercabes. com I have their 1 meter 'Reference', Component 'upgrade' :) of the original Silver Serpents.
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
As aluded to above, very few of the companies mentioned (even the "high end" ones) actually do any cable design. The majority of them buy their cable from other suppliers & just customize them with spiffy jackets, logo's and terminations. As Marty DeWulf once said (if I recall, to the head honcho of Ridge Street, though my memory may be faulty), "Sure there's science to cable design, but it's not your science!" (Hope I got the quote right, it was very close to that).

Without getting into the merits of cables or their possible sonic qualities, I ask you this: why the hell would you ever pay $1000 per foot for cables made with off-the-shelf wire that you could cheaply buy yourself? Even a total dunce could learn to construct his own cables, or at the worst pay a more technically inclined person to do so. Like diamonds, the value of a product like that is in the perception. I'm not saying the $1000 cable couldn't sound great, but my problem is in the markup. I can't give you solid numbers right now, but I know many boutique cables boast a markup of several thousand percent! :eek:

You may as well be discussing the existence of God as the audibility of Cables. But I know for a fact that selling something for more money doesn't change its sound.
 
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