Someone want to help an old

[MrBoat]

guy learn this Inuke 3000dsp? Yes, I RTFM. So far, everything sounds great. I moved one of the xover settings to 80, but there are a lot of other settings, most of which may not have anything to do with subwoofer usage. I have been hesitant to mess with anything else because it's actually working. I am powering a single Dayton Ultimax 12".

Couple of things I am curious about though. One being that the speakers I have, Fusion-12 Tempests, are known for a strong midbass. Should I be tailoring my crossover for the subs differently than the typical blanket settings for say, bookshelf speakers, so that I am not robbing performance from the mains? I know this is probably a trial and error thing and I am sure I'll get to that, but figured maybe some of you would like to throw some ideas to try. Perhaps some of you know these amps and their strengths and weaknesses. I am sure some of the settings are still factory default for other uses. Maybe there is something I should change that is detrimental to my sub's health that I don't know, but should. I haven't been letting it go to the red led, other than intermittently at times on some unexpected, bass heavy moments.

I haven't been to the Behringer website yet, or dnld'd any software. Just figured I'd see what you folks had to say first.

This is music only with just two main speakers beside the sub.

 

[Swerd]

Bass sound depends heavily on how the primary and reflected waves interact with each other. For rooms in most homes, this is true for sound below roughly 200 to 300 Hz. Above those frequencies, sound is much more controlled by the primary speakers.

It all comes down to trial and error. What works for other owners of the same speakers you have will be different unless room dimensions, speaker and listener locations are similar.

You seem to understand what sound you prefer. Let that guide you as you play with the settings.

 

[ski2xblack]

Good morning, MrBoat. Hope the world is treating you well. I'm not familiar with the iNuke, so I can't offer any specific guidance, other than it has everything you might need. I wouldn't worry too much about diving too deep into the iNuke's dsp capability until you have assessed the situation more carefully using REW, Omnimic, or similar.

You only need to use the low pass filter in the iNuke if you have the speakers set to "large" (or whatever full range is in Denon parlance). In this case, set the iNuke's lpf where the Tempests roll off, 40-45 hz or so.

If, on the other hand, you have the speakers set to "small" then use the lpf of the Denon, rather than in the iNuke. Whatever you do, don't run lpf in both the Denon and iNuke simultaneously. I don't know how flexible your Denon is as far as choosing hp/lp filter frequencies, but even if it only offers a single choice (likely 80 hz) that's fine.

The first method is simpler to do, but since you were gifted a Denon with bass management, I encourage you to use it.

Be sure to peruse the subwoofer setup and calibration articles in the Home Theater Setup tab on the Audioholics main page. I seem to remember a helpful one that uses you favorite Jaco or Victor Wooten tracks rather than REW to dial in your sub, although doing measurements can really expedite the process. The rta gear would also help identify issues that your iNuke's PEQ can help fix.

 

[MrBoat]

Good morning, MrBoat. Hope the world is treating you well. I'm not familiar with the iNuke, so I can't offer any specific guidance.

You only need to use the low pass filter in the iNuke if you have the speakers set to "large" (or whatever full range is in Denon parlance). In this case, set the iNuke's lpf where the Tempests roll off, 40-45 hz or so.

If, on the other hand, you have the speakers set to "small" then use the lpf of the Denon, rather than in the iNuke. Whatever you do, don't run lpf in both the Denon and iNuke simultaneously. I don't know how flexible your Denon is as far as choosing hp/lp filter frequencies, but even if it only offers a single choice (likely 80 hz) that's fine.

The first method is simpler to do, but since you were gifted a Denon with bass management, I encourage you to use it.

Be sure to peruse the subwoofer setup and calibration articles in the Home Theater Setup tab on the Audioholics main page. I seem to remember a helpful one that uses you favorite Jaco or Victor Wooten tracks rather than measurement gear (REW, Omnimic, etc) to dial in your sub, although such gear can really expedite the process.

Good answer. That was almost specifically what I was wondering whether to set the mains to large or small. The most common prescription is to set the mains to small other than full range speakers. The Denon 3805 crossover settings are variable instead of fixed value. I think it has LFE and LFE+Main but the manual for either unit does not get real specific. The reach of the Tempests, as I have noticed, sit on such a fine line of needing a sub, or not, that it seems almost a shame not to use them for what they are worth, and then just using the sub for some breath in the lowest frequencies, or IOW, the overall presence.

You have to imagine my surprise (or disbelief on my part) that I could turn this on first time and have it sound great outside of gain adjustment preferences. I don't usually get lucky like that. Not with so many options available, anyway. I was really hesitant to set the mains to "small" and that's where the owners manual falls off.

I understand why, now, that AVRs have auto EQ. Not a lot of people in the mass market are going to want to do all of that research and trial and error with so many settings. I recall the first time I installed Linux on a machine that had eaten it's prior OS, and it just so happened that the P100 board I had did not support the Linux installer, so I had to go through and read all of the files and pick, choose (there are a lot) and install the ones I thought I needed. On one side, it sucked because it was a long, tedious process. On the other, it was great because I had a system that was very efficient without any chaff, and I was now ultimately familiar with my OS (including the syntax) front to back.

On a brighter note, the addition of the sub has fallen seamlessly in with the Tempests. I am not getting a separation between the sub and the mains. They all sound like one speaker and the phantom center. How freaky is that?

 

[ski2xblack]

it seems almost a shame not to use them for what they are worth, and then just using the sub for some breath in the lowest frequencies

Keep in mind that you are not using brick wall filters. You won't be hamstringing your Tempests (you'll actually reduce IM and increase dynamic capabilities), and your sub is better able to handle the lows.

Some edits for clarification in my previous post.

 

[Bucknekked]

On a brighter note, the addition of the sub has fallen seamlessly in with the Tempests. I am not getting a separation between the sub and the mains. They all sound like one speaker and the phantom center. How freaky is that?

I like freaky phantom center stereo.........on purpose or achieved with pure luck. I'll take it either way.
Luck favors the prepared however, so you were probably prepared.

 

[MrBoat]

Keep in mind that you are not using brick wall filters. You won't be hamstringing your Tempests (you'll actually reduce IM and increase dynamic capabilities), and your sub is better able to handle the lows.

Some edits for clarification in my previous post.

That's the part I need to get a handle on via familiarity, I reckon. I kind of understand it, I do still hear the punchy midbass on the Tempests when I turn the gain down on the sub. But that is what I was wondering, just incase there were absolutes to the filter effects.

 

[MrBoat]

I like freaky phantom center stereo.........on purpose or achieved with pure luck. I'll take it either way.
Luck favors the prepared however, so you were probably prepared.

Apparently, the phantom center is a good side effect of this design, and what makes the waveguide types a good bet for a lot of different situations. This setup sounds very good, and I am pretty certain they are forgiving in that aspect, where they are unforgiving towards crappy recordings. I suppose that's the tradeoff. I'll take that.

 

[ski2xblack]

That's the part I need to get a handle on via familiarity, I reckon. I kind of understand it, I do still hear the punchy midbass on the Tempests when I turn the gain down on the sub. But that is what I was wondering, just incase there were absolutes to the filter effects.

Well, think of it this way. Tempests are reflex boxes, and below box tuning the woofers and ports go out of phase, or decouple. At such frequencies the cones move a lot, but it's partially canceled by the out of phase air from the ports, so no appreciable increase in volume. This is why ported boxes roll off more steeply than sealed.

So, you're listening to your favorite EDM music with some droning 30 hz content. The woofers are visibly moving. They're also handling everything up to where they cross to the tweets, all of which is modulated by that excessive cone motion. Employing bass management avoids all that.

 

[MrBoat]

Well, think of it this way. Tempests are reflex boxes, and below box tuning the woofers and ports go out of phase, or decouple. At such frequencies the cones move a lot, but it's partially canceled by the out of phase air from the ports, so no appreciable increase in volume. This is why ported boxes roll off more steeply than sealed.

So, you're listening to your favorite EDM music with some droning 30 hz content. The woofers are visibly moving. They're also handling everything up to where they cross to the tweets, all of which is modulated by that excessive cone motion. Employing bass management avoids all that.

Right at this moment, it sounds almost too good. The woofers in the Tempests aren't moving what I consider very much at all compared to what I am used to with my older 3 ways and what movement is there is, seemingly 'crisp' for lack of a better explanation, and the Tempests are coming across with authority. The kick drums may as well be live, in this room, and there is next to no resonance, or argument between the sub and the mains. The sweet spot is enormous, if not complete. The whole thing is just sweet. I'm sitting here grinning like a horse eating briars. Sometimes I even say; "wowww" out loud. lol

This amp has a PC interface to where I can work the gain and such from there. I am waiting on a 25 ft USB cable to do it from there before I get too far into it.

 

[ski2xblack]

The woofers in the Tempests aren't moving what I consider very much at all compared to what I am used to with my older 3 ways and what movement is there is, seemingly 'crisp' for lack of a better explanation, and the Tempests are coming across with authority.

Paul W. Klipsch, one of the titans of hi fi, had a list of engineering requirements that he considered essential to a loudspeaker. It was called the "8 Card" or some such. One of the requirements was that cone excursion could not exceed a specific amount (can't remember exactly, but it was a very small amount) for the sake of minimizing modulation distortion. He was forced to go with full horn loading to accomplish this goal in his KHorn. You, however, have the benefit of bass management and an Ultimax sub, to achieve similar goals.

Your Klipsch buddy may appreciate your 'garage speaker' setup more knowing that your rig adheres so closely to PWK's engineering concepts (and more closely than his Best Buy pseudo-Klipsch ever could).

Anywho, yeah, your rig is dope, and should evoke a "WOW!" every now and then. Keep enjoying the music, my friend!

 

[MrBoat]

Paul W. Klipsch, one of the titans of hi fi, had a list of engineering requirements that he considered essential to a loudspeaker. It was called the "8 Card" or some such. One of the requirements was that cone excursion could not exceed a specific amount (can't remember exactly, but it was a very small amount) for the sake of minimizing modulation distortion. He was forced to go with full horn loading to accomplish this goal in his KHorn. You, however, have the benefit of bass management and an Ultimax sub, to achieve similar goals.

Your Klipsch buddy may appreciate your 'garage speaker' setup more knowing that your rig adheres so closely to PWK's engineering concepts (and more closely than his Best Buy pseudo-Klipsch ever could).

Anywho, yeah, your rig is dope, and should evoke a "WOW!" every now and then. Keep enjoying the music, my friend!

He's going to have to drop some bucks to top this. He's either going to concede, or go temporarily broke, and he better do his homework if he is out to prove this style of speaker and listening wrong.