Some input needed - Two subs versus One

[MGirvan]

Thank you to all who offer me some insight/guidance. So first off I'm not young or new to audio, I'm almost 48. Currently I have two small REL T-Zero subs that are augmenting some KEF R300s on stands. I'm using a NAD M3 with an M51 DAC. I have essentially a near field listening environment with pretty good acoustics. Currently I simply have each sub positioned right in from of the speaker about 3 feet out from the walls. I'm pleased with the sound, but I'm considering harmonizing my speakers and just using one KEF R400b as the sub. Frankly I listen at rather modest volume most of the time so I'm not really looking for huge volume output, although on occasion I do turn it up a little, but as I'm sure you can imagine smallish standmounts don't have much cabinet volume to work with so volume isn't what my system is geared toward.

My question is, and I know this is mostly subjective, but I would still love your opinions/thoughts. What might I gain by moving to the one KEF versus two smaller. entry level REL's? Maybe it is nothing more than an aesthetic move? Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. I'm a long standing member at head-fi with a fair amount of experience with headphones so I could perhaps return the guidance favour if anybody has questions about headphone listening. Cheers, and thank you.

 

[fuzz092888]

You'll gain more low end output, but may sacrifice a flatter frequency response. The former is guaranteed, the latter depends on a lot on sub placement and the room itself. The Kef is rated to 26Hz at -6, while the Rel's are rated at 38Hz -6 in room. So you might not even be getting that.

If you haven't played the Kef or don't have the Kef yet you may notive a "fuller" sound when you make the switch. If you haven't picked up with Kef yet, I'd skip it.

 

[MGirvan]

You'll gain more low end output, but may sacrifice a flatter frequency response. The former is guaranteed, the latter depends on a lot on sub placement and the room itself. The Kef is rated to 26Hz at -6, while the Rel's are rated at 38Hz -6 in room. So you might not even be getting that.

If you haven't played the Kef or don't have the Kef yet you may notive a "fuller" sound when you make the switch. If you haven't picked up with Kef yet, I'd skip it.

Interesting, so essentially you are saying that if there is any gain at all, it will likely be modest at best. Yes, I don't have the KEF yet so the feedback is timely. What I'm more interested in overall is having the bass a little more filled out down low, but more important to me than how deep in the sub range is covered is the quality of the sound. I went the two sub route after researching things and I have been pleased up to now so if I was to change my approach, I would want there to be a reason to do so that wasn't marginal. Essentially I guess I wanted to know if the technical merits of the KEF design were likely to offer definite sonic benefits over the budget RELs. I do notice that when on rare occasion I do play the music a little louder I think the RELs fall behind a little, but they are rather small so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised. I've read that the T Zero will start to get wooly at louder volumes and my experience is this is somewhat true. Have you had any experience with either of these subs by chance?

 

[agarwalro]

A subwoofer doesn't need to be of the same brand as the main speakers. Looks like the Kef is about $1500. With that budget, you should look for subwoofers that play down to 20Hz with ease.

 

[MGirvan]

A subwoofer doesn't need to be of the same brand as the main speakers. Looks like the Kef is about $1500. With that budget, you should look for subwoofers that play down to 20Hz with ease.

I know, but looks count and unless there is a technical deficiency with the KEF, which I doubt there would be, looks do count for something. Why not, audio is more than sound, we enjoy the look of our gear as well. I know I do anyway. Still sound trumps looks for me, but I have as of yet not heard about any technical issues with the KEF sub.

 

[fuzz092888]

I know, but looks count and unless there is a technical deficiency with the KEF, which I doubt there would be, looks do count for something. Why not, audio is more than sound, we enjoy the look of our gear as well. I know I do anyway. Still sound trumps looks for me, but I have as of yet not heard about any technical issues with the KEF sub.

It's not there are technical issues with the Kef. It just won't pressurize a medium or large room adequately, especially not at the frequencies you're looking for. Throw in the -6 ponit of 26db and the price tag and you've got a pretty, but still over priced subwoofer unless size is extremely important.

What are the dimensions of your room?

 

[MGirvan]

It's not there are technical issues with the Kef. It just won't pressurize a medium or large room adequately, especially not at the frequencies you're looking for. Throw in the -6 ponit of 26db and the price tag and you've got a pretty, but still over priced subwoofer unless size is extremely important.

What are the dimensions of your room?

 

[fuzz092888]

I think you forgot to type something.

 

[MGirvan]

The room is 20' x 12'. I don't mind paying a reasonable premium for looks, I have a partner to consider so there is no way any big ass box will float so compromises need to be made. Plus, I like nice looking things and I'm willing to shed some real deep performance for reasonable deep performance that looks good; however, it has to make sense technically as I don't want to waste money. So given these parameters it sounds like the single KEF doesn't really get me past what the two RELs are doing anyway. I just wonder how overmatched by the room they are? They sit across from a thick couch, and the floor is covered wall to wall with a wool rug. In general the acoustics are rather good.

 

[MGirvan]

That was weird, I hit reply to your last message? Not sure what happened?

 

[fuzz092888]

The room is 20' x 12'.

So you're looking at 1900+ cubic ft assuming 8ft ceilings. Not gigantic, but not tiny either.

I don't mind paying a reasonable premium for looks, I have a partner to consider so there is no way any big ass box will float so compromises need to be made. Plus, I like nice looking things and I'm willing to shed some real deep performance for reasonable deep performance that looks good; however, it has to make sense technically as I don't want to waste money.

My thoughts that are around the same price as the Kef are as follows

A custom sub from Salk
http://salksound.com/salkrythmik - home.htm

Hsu, only one veneer option, but on the smaller side and it'll definitely give you the performance.
http://hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15mk2.html

Awesome warranty, free trial, small footprint, and great performance
http://www.svsound.com/collections/sealed-subwoofers/products/sb13-ultra

Rythmik Excellent subwoofers at a variety of price points and different sealed versions which keeps the footprint small.
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/products1.html

Source Technology Loudspeakers, don't mind the website. I know John personally, but his products deliver.
http://www.sourcespeaker.com/Sublist-2.html

So given these parameters it sounds like the single KEF doesn't really get me past what the two RELs are doing anyway.

Not really, IMO, but I'm just going off the specs. Like I said, you'll get bit more extension with the Kef, but overall I don't think it's worth the price.

I just wonder how overmatched by the room they are? They sit across from a thick couch, and the floor is covered wall to wall with a wool rug. In general the acoustics are rather good.

With subwoofers acoustics are only part of it. Subwoofers work by moving air and they "see" all the air that is present in not only the room, but in any other room that is connected that isn't sealed off. The most efficient way to move more air is more surface area. So either you add more drivers, or have a subwoofer with a bigger cone. To make a long story short, if you want effortless deep bass, you need to overplan the sub. Neither the Kef nor the Rel's are really close to some of the other options listed.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

With price of R400b you can get 2 good subs from svs/hsu/psa.. I would go that route any day.

 

[agarwalro]

I know, but looks count and unless there is a technical deficiency with the KEF, which I doubt there would be, looks do count for something. Why not, audio is more than sound, we enjoy the look of our gear as well. I know I do anyway. Still sound trumps looks for me, but I have as of yet not heard about any technical issues with the KEF sub.

No argument about looks mattering to you or needing the speakers gel with decor, etc.

There is a glaring technical deficiency with the Kef sub. Its rated 26Hz -6dB. A sub should play 20Hz with authority. No ifs or buts. I would not pay $500 for the Kef, let alone $1500.

Salk Sound can custom make a Rythmik sub to match your main speakers. $1500 will get you a much better performing sub without sacrificing looks.

 

[MGirvan]

Wow, kind of what I've expected, really good responses. I'm going to seriously research and consider all of the options presented here, for which I am extremely grateful. Over the years I have lurked and read many threads in this community and it is nice to finally openly speak with the members here.

So last question to help guide my further investigation. Given the various options (I had years ago considered Salk speakers so it is nice to see his work recommended here) where does my current two REL T Zeros fit in? Are they night and day outclassed by all of the suggestions or can a case be made for them? I like having two subs so assuming I can manage the $1900 Canadian price point of the KEF sub, can I obtain two subs that will significantly, and musically outperform the two RELs?

 

[fuzz092888]

Wow, kind of what I've expected, really good responses. I'm going to seriously research and consider all of the options presented here, for which I am extremely grateful. Over the years I have lurked and read many threads in this community and it is nice to finally openly speak with the members here.

So last question to help guide my further investigation. Given the various options (I had years ago considered Salk speakers so it is nice to see his work recommended here) where does my current two REL T Zeros fit in? Are they night and day outclassed by all of the suggestions or can a case be made for them? I like having two subs so assuming I can manage the $1900 Canadian price point of the KEF sub, can I obtain two subs that will significantly, and musically outperform the two RELs?

To your first question, unequivocally yes. To your second question yes. Explore some of those links and you'll find some reasonably priced subs that you can get duals of that will curb stomp the Rel's.

 

[KenM10759]

The KEF is a lot of money for what they deliver, but they are awfully pretty. And probably hard to place. Two small opposing drivers, which way to point them? They have but two finishes, gloss black or gloss white.

When you look at the much cheaper offerings from the most popular makers the deliver much better performance, it seems only Hsu offers a wood finish (gloss rosewood) for a reasonable price with the ULS-15 MK2. That would be so much easier to place, look pretty and deliver lower frequencies than either the REL or KEF.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

The KEF is a lot of money for what they deliver, but they are awfully pretty. And probably hard to place. Two small opposing drivers, which way to point them? They have but two finishes, gloss black or gloss white.

When you look at the much cheaper offerings from the most popular makers the deliver much better performance, it seems only Hsu offers a wood finish (gloss rosewood) for a reasonable price with the ULS-15 MK2. That would be so much easier to place, look pretty and deliver lower frequencies than either the REL or KEF.

B.K. Electronics make pretty subs that perform well. But I think they only deliver to Europe. How ever they dont make bigger subs, but I'm happy with my 12".

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

one better sub vs two lesser subs?

I would go with one better sub, especially if you can place that one sub in the middle of the front wall.

 

[herbu]

I would go with one better sub, especially if you can place that one sub in the middle of the front wall.

I agree... if you have to choose.

With one good sub you can guarantee very good bass in at least your primary listening position. Due diligence in sub placement could likely give you good performance around the room.

With two lesser subs, you can guarantee lesser performance at every listening position... (what you have now).

And remember, if you get a new good sub, you'll still have your RELs. Though not recommended as a final solution, you can use one of them along w/ your new sub to help smooth any bass nulls in the rooom.