so what movie on BR or HD-DVD has DTS-HD or DD-HD?

mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
so what movie on BR or HD-DVD has DTS-HD or DD-HD?

(since audio-HD is optional on the high res discs)

the DTS website is a bit vague for me:
1) fact: DTS-HD can be passed through HDMI 1.3
2) unclear: can DTS-HD be passed using analog outs from the player to the analog ins on the receiver?
3) misleading/vague: ordinary DTS receivers can decode DTS-core from DTS-HD capable discs ... therefore, it ISN'T actually DTS-HD right?
 
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MACCA350

MACCA350

Audioholic Chief
1) fact: DTS-HD can be passed through HDMI 1.3
Can be, yes, but it's up to the studios whether or not to encode the discs to allow the player to bypass its internal mixing and output the raw data. Apparently NONE of the discs on the market at the moment are so encoded, and Dolby says that if some will be they will be in the minority.

2) unclear: can DTS-HD be passed using analog outs from the player to the analog ins on the receiver?
Yes, as long as the player supports DTS-HD MA(I'm assuming you're referring to the Master Audio version) decoding and has analogue outputs

3) misleading/vague: ordinary DTS receivers can decode DTS-core from DTS-HD capable discs ... therefore, it ISN'T actually DTS-HD right?
Not sure what you're getting at here, but DTS-HD MA is made up of a DTS Encore(1.5Mbps) plus extension information that has the rest of the data for the lossless DTS-HD MA, so yes it's DTS-HD MA. This DTS Encore(core) allows for backwards compatibility with current receivers if you use the optical/coax outputs.

cheers:)
 
racquetman

racquetman

Audioholic Chief
mike c said:
so what movie on BR or HD-DVD has DTS-HD or DD-HD?

(since audio-HD is optional on the high res discs)

the DTS website is a bit vague for me:
1) fact: DTS-HD can be passed through HDMI 1.3
2) unclear: can DTS-HD be passed using analog outs from the player to the analog ins on the receiver?
3) misleading/vague: ordinary DTS receivers can decode DTS-core from DTS-HD capable discs ... therefore, it ISN'T actually DTS-HD right?
I don't know, Mike. It seems pretty clear to me. Did you take a look at the brochure?

http://www.dtsonline.com/media/dts_hd_brochure.pdf

First, there are 2 types of DTS-HD. DTS-HD master audio and DTS-HD high resolution audio. They list the differences between the 2 on page 3 of the brochure.

As far as connection options go, they are clearly listed in the brochure as well. DTS-HD master audio can be passed via analog outs if the source component has a DTS-HD master audio decoder onboard. If you are going to use the receiver to do the decoding, and it is only capable of decoding DTS core (or DTS digital surround as they call it), then yes, that is all you are going to get. However there are 3 different ways to get the highest quality audio which is very nice!! HDMI 1.3, analog outs, or HDMI 1.1/1.2.

I wonder how well designed the bass management options are in the 1st generation HD-DVD and Blu-ray players???
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
MACCA350 said:
Not sure what you're getting at here, but DTS-HD MA is made up of a DTS Encore(1.5Mbps) plus extension information that has the rest of the data for the lossless DTS-HD MA, so yes it's DTS-HD MA. This DTS Encore(core) allows for backwards compatibility with current receivers if you use the optical/coax outputs.

cheers:)
isn't 1.5mbps what we're getting now? (using optical outs)
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
alandamp said:
I don't know, Mike. It seems pretty clear to me. Did you take a look at the brochure?

http://www.dtsonline.com/media/dts_hd_brochure.pdf

First, there are 2 types of DTS-HD. DTS-HD master audio and DTS-HD high resolution audio. They list the differences between the 2 on page 3 of the brochure.

As far as connection options go, they are clearly listed in the brochure as well. DTS-HD master audio can be passed via analog outs if the source component has a DTS-HD master audio decoder onboard. If you are going to use the receiver to do the decoding, and it is only capable of decoding DTS core (or DTS digital surround as they call it), then yes, that is all you are going to get. However there are 3 different ways to get the highest quality audio which is very nice!! HDMI 1.3, analog outs, or HDMI 1.1/1.2.

I wonder how well designed the bass management options are in the 1st generation HD-DVD and Blu-ray players???
yes, the brochure points out our existing receivers can decode DTS core ... but obviously we want better than what we have right now, otherwise, why upgrade?

but if NO movie right now or in the near future will have DTS-HD ... kinda makes my point moot anyway :)
 
racquetman

racquetman

Audioholic Chief
mike c said:
yes, the brochure points out our existing receivers can decode DTS core ... but obviously we want better than what we have right now.
If you have analog inputs or HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 on your receiver then you can get the best audio possible.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
so how many mbps is our existing DTS digital surround?
 
racquetman

racquetman

Audioholic Chief
mike c said:
so how many mbps is our existing DTS digital surround?
Up to 1.5 mbps. Not all discs are going to use that high of a bit rate though. I think most are around seven hundred something (about half the max).
 
MACCA350

MACCA350

Audioholic Chief
mike c said:
so how many mbps is our existing DTS digital surround?
Existing DTS on DVD is mostly 768 kbps and sometimes 1.5 Mbps

DTS-HD MA tops out at 24.5 Mbps

cheers:)
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
thanks MACCA ... so is it confirmed that the bluray and HDdvd discs sold now have at least 1.5mbps or are they the same as sd DVD in terms of audio?
 
MACCA350

MACCA350

Audioholic Chief
mike c said:
thanks MACCA ... so is it confirmed that the bluray and HDdvd discs sold now have at least 1.5mbps or are they the same as sd DVD in terms of audio?
depends on the disc, but I'm not sure if there are any DTS_HD MA encoded discs on the market yet. HD-DVD has been using Dolby TrueHD(lossless) on many releases for a while now.

cheers:)
 
MACCA350

MACCA350

Audioholic Chief
Most Blue-ray use Lossless multichannel PCM along with standard DD5.1

cheers:)
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
additional questions:

for SD DVD players
1) will there be an improvement of sound quality if HDMI audio output/input is used VS. our typical optical cables? (I don't really understand the lossless thingies)

for HD DVD players
2) is it safe to assume using HDMI to output/input our typical DTS/DD signals is better than:
a) digital (coaxial and optical)?
b) what about direct analog outputs?

between the lines of my questions is just a simple, do I buy a receiver now with 1.2 HDMI or wait for HDMI 1.3 (i've read a lot of threads that say 1.2 is "functional" - but what I want to know is, is 1.3 better with the current HD discs that are out)
 
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Rock&Roll Ninja

Rock&Roll Ninja

Audioholic Field Marshall
mike c said:
additional questions:

for SD DVD players
1) will there be an improvement of sound quality if HDMI audio output/input is used VS. our typical optical cables? (I don't really understand the lossless thingies)
No

for HD DVD players
2) is it safe to assume using HDMI to output/input our typical DTS/DD signals is better than:
a) digital (coaxial and optical)?
b) what about direct analog outputs?
No. DD/DTS will sound no different over HDMI unless something is wrong with your AVR (such as a DSP that turns-on automatically). Analog outputs are the only way to listen to the Dolby TrueHD soundtrack today, as no AVRs can decode them yet. Otherwise this feature is kinda pointless unless you have a really-old Pro*Logic reciever. In which case HDMI standards are the least of your problems.

between the lines of my questions is just a simple, do I buy a receiver now with 1.2 HDMI or wait for HDMI 1.3 (i've read a lot of threads that say 1.2 is "functional" - but what I want to know is, is 1.3 better with the current HD discs that are out)
I'm waiting for 1.3. Lossless audio is already on the disks, why wouldn't i want to hear it?
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
Rock&Roll Ninja said:
I'm waiting for 1.3. Lossless audio is already on the disks, why wouldn't i want to hear it?
so you're saying 1.2 CAN'T pass lossless audio?

thanks for the other info btw.
 
MACCA350

MACCA350

Audioholic Chief
Rock&Roll Ninja said:
I'm waiting for 1.3. Lossless audio is already on the disks, why wouldn't i want to hear it?
See post #2

mike c said:
so you're saying 1.2 CAN'T pass lossless audio?
Lossless Multichannel PCM can pass over all versions of HDMI, and going on how the Media and players work thats probably all you'll need(unless things change).

cheers:)
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
i'm going crazy over this MACCA ... there are about an equal number of people that say 1.2 is sufficient and all you need (they say the 1st gen 1.3 HDMI that's gonna come out is useless because without the accompanying board/decoder, you can't really utilize 1.3)

while the other half says you have to wait for 1.3 for the HD master audio and stuff
 
MACCA350

MACCA350

Audioholic Chief
Mike, I've compiled some information from Dolby's TrueHD Whitepapers starting at page 8. there is also a diagram that shows how the mixing process works. Hopefully this should clear things up.
Both HD disc formats possess an audio sophistication dramatically greater than that of standard-definition DVD-Video. For example, rather than simply delivering a commentary track on the disc, the new formats might construct a commentary enhanced track using the main soundtrack from the movie, mixed with a commentary track downloaded from the Internet. These elements will be mixed in the player to create the final audio presentation.

The implications of this are significant. Aside from the obvious aspect that new features can be created for a given title long after the discs have shipped, the fact that players will be mixing the audio internally means that it will no longer be possible to output the raw bitstreams from the player as is customary with DVD-Video. Instead, these players will decode and mix in standard PCM format, and therefore will have the option to output the PCM digital signal either directly, or through DACs as analog signals to the connected audio receiver. It should be mentioned that certain discs and players will indeed support the direct output of encoded audio bitstreams, but this option is the choice of the content maker.

Many advanced A/V receivers and processors manufactured today have six (or even eight) channels of external analog audio input for high-resolution DVD-Audio or SACD playback; these will work equally well for multichannel analog-equipped HD disc players, and enable consumers to take advantage of the full-bandwidth audio performance available in nextgeneration formats without having to upgrade their A/V systems. A growing number of A/V receivers include HDMI™ (1.1) inputs, providing a direct digital connection for the new optical disc players. This ensures not only that the full quality of the HD formats will be available, but that any digital postprocessing—such as bass management, room compensation, speaker equalization, Dolby Pro Logic® IIx processing, and others—can be performed in the A/V processor directly on the source audio without any extra analog and digital conversion steps along the way.

One additional consequence of the above rapidly becomes apparent: there will be no particular reason or benefit to decoding native audio bitstreams in the A/V receiver. This means A/V receivers with HDMI digital inputs or analog-to-digital converters for their analog inputs will be able to use their DSP resources to postprocess full-bandwidth audio from the players, rather than being required to also handle core bitstream decoding duties. (Such postprocessing is often done at a sampling rate of 96 kHz, thereby demanding at least double the DSP horsepower of conventional postprocessing done at 48 kHz.)
Further reading, TrueHD FAQ's, Ensuring Compatibility Between Next-Generation High-Definition Disc Players and Your A/V System

cheers:)
 

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