Small sealed driver recommendation!!

[annunaki]

I have been looking around for a new potential project for some of my customers. I have been trying to find a quality 12" driver I could use in a minimal enclosure (below 2.0ft^3 net volume) with some modest EQ. I also wanted to find a driver that was reasonably priced.

Enter the Image Dynamics IDQ12 D2 v3

This is a high quality driver with reasonable xmax (18mm one way linear) that makes it a suitable candidate for this type of application.

So the enclosure size you ask...

How about 1.5ft^3 net volume?!

This yields a Qtc of .668

A couple of assumptions for this enclosure are a low pass crossover 2nd order at 80hz and a highpass (infrasonic) filter 2nd order at 20hz.

As stated this does require a slight amount of eq and it is as follows:
EQ 1: Center frequency 62hz; net "Q" of .90; a cut of -3.50db
EQ 2: Center frequency 30hz; net "Q" of 2.0: a gain of +2.75db
EQ 3: Center frequency 20hz; net "Q" of 3.0: a gain of +3.00db


Here are the results:

+/-1db response between 31.8hz and 92hz peaking at 108.4db
+/-3db response between 27hz and 117hz peaking at 108.4db

F3 of 27hz
F6 of 23hz
F10 of 19hz

All simulations were done using 500 watts rms input power. Xmax was kept at or below rated 18mm. I have used Image Dynamics drivers in the past with very good results. I have not actually measured this design but would have no issue using this setup in my own home if the application was warranted.

 

[zumbo]

Any JL 12.

 

[MidnightSensi2]

I've used both JL Audio and Image Dynamics in car audio applications. The JL's I loved, but if your wanting to get within a certain budget, but still want to add some EQ for the bottom, also try RE Audio and Memphis Audio drivers.

The trouble is this: Sensitivity and efficiency. Some of these car audio drivers just take insane amounts of power to drive them, so you might end up spending more on the amplifier end. Just something to look into.

...

Side note: Do you really want this project? Just get them to buy a pre-made subwoofer. Lots of inwalls and stuff. You're likely going to loose your ***. Keep your business and hobby separate!!!!!

 

[annunaki]

I've used both JL Audio and Image Dynamics in car audio applications. The JL's I loved, but if your wanting to get within a certain budget, but still want to add some EQ for the bottom, also try RE Audio and Memphis Audio drivers.

The trouble is this: Sensitivity and efficiency. Some of these car audio drivers just take insane amounts of power to drive them, so you might end up spending more on the amplifier end. Just something to look into.

...

Side note: Do you really want this project? Just get them to buy a pre-made subwoofer. Lots of inwalls and stuff. You're likely going to loose your ***. Keep your business and hobby separate!!!!!

Why would I get them to buy a premade sub when this will easily exceed the performance of nearly any sealed commercial sub under $1K? And do so in a 16" x 16" x 16" cube! This IS the DIY section.

This sub woofer is also 90db for sensitivity, I am not sure what you are referencing there, perhaps the RE drivers? . In my experience Image Dynamics drivers have been quite efficient in their use of power.

I am not trying to add much EQ in this application. I am trying to get a low f3 with a small enclosure and minimal EQ with little response deviation over a wide bandwidth. This driver fits better for this application than many I have modeled.

 

[annunaki]

Any JL 12.

Huh? Not sure what you mean here?

 

[zumbo]

Huh? Not sure what you mean here?

Any JL 12 can go in a sealed enclosure smaller than your requirements.

 

[GranteedEV]

Any JL 12 can go in a sealed enclosure smaller than your requirements.

going in and being as effective in are totally different things.

The JL 12W7, at least by the default winISD parameters, would require 2.9 cu ft to have the same box Q

 

[annunaki]

Any JL 12 can go in a sealed enclosure smaller than your requirements.

Not according to the T/S parameters...

...and not at a .668 QTC

 

[MidnightSensi2]

Nod, ID typically isn't bad.

Why would I get them to buy a premade sub when this will easily exceed the performance of nearly any sealed commercial sub under $1K? And do so in a 16" x 16" x 16" cube! This IS the DIY section.

Because you're in the business to make money, right? How can you design, order materials, and build a one-off enclosure for the cost of a pre-made one? Then if they ever blow or have a problem with the driver, amplifier, or so on....it's you who has to deal with the warranty. Maybe it's 1k in parts, but what about labor and your time? Get a sub out of a box and install it.

Maybe you can do it cheaper, and make money in the process, I'm just saying... take a look first! I'm all for cool projects, but when it comes to business, the hobby has to go aside...even if they loose some performance.

 

[zumbo]

going in and being as effective in are totally different things.

As far as going in, it is the sealed specs they recommend. I am not the best at navigating websites, but the JL site is pretty darn easy.

As far as being effective, JL subs are the most effective I have ever heard.

 

[Matt34]

This isn't a thread about annunaki's business model. I don't care if you've been here ten years, lose the attitudes.

 

[zumbo]

Misread thread title

Misread thread title to be "Small sealed driver recommendation??"

When in fact, it's "Small sealed driver recommendation!!"

I apologize for that annunaki.

Seems as though I was not the only one to misread.

As far as recommending a JL for DIY home subs, I have been recommending them here since before they entered the home audio market. And it seems, just as MB Quart(German Maestro now) drivers perform very respectfully in the home audio environment, JL has taken the competition by storm.

On-the-other-hand, a JL home sub is very expensive. So, to me, the idea of a DIY JL sub should be appealing.

 

[annunaki]

As far as going in, it is the sealed specs they recommend. I am not the best at navigating websites, but the JL site is pretty darn easy.

As far as being effective, JL subs are the most effective I have ever heard.

Those enclosure recommendations are for a vehicle, not a home. Also they are much smaller than they should be when proper modeling is done using using the T/S parameters.

 

[annunaki]

Nod, ID typically isn't bad.



Because you're in the business to make money, right? How can you design, order materials, and build a one-off enclosure for the cost of a pre-made one? Then if they ever blow or have a problem with the driver, amplifier, or so on....it's you who has to deal with the warranty. Maybe it's 1k in parts, but what about labor and your time? Get a sub out of a box and install it.

Maybe you can do it cheaper, and make money in the process, I'm just saying... take a look first! I'm all for cool projects, but when it comes to business, the hobby has to go aside...even if they loose some performance.

I am in business to make money which is why I carefully select products/solutions that I know will outperform anything else in the price class I charge for. This is of extreme value for my clients.

I have been in this industry for over 12 years. I understand what is out there (commercially available products). I also understand what is hobby vs. business and know where my niche in the marketplace is. Many if not all of my clients also understand this. I am very selective about what clients I accept and propose unique solutions for, when and where they are warranted. Unless you are the one who is getting the referrals from your own highly satisfied customers, then please don't explain to me how I should or should not be running my business.

The intent of my thread was to benefit those DIY'ers out there who are sometimes looking for that elusive combo of very small enclosure size and reasonable extension with response linearity.

 

[MidnightSensi2]

I am in business to make money which is why I carefully select products/solutions that I know will outperform anything else in the price class I charge for. This is of extreme value for my clients.

I have been in this industry for over 12 years. I understand what is out there (commercially available products). I also understand what is hobby vs. business and know where my niche in the marketplace is. Many if not all of my clients also understand this. I am very selective about what clients I accept and propose unique solutions for, when and where they are warranted. Unless you are the one who is getting the referrals from your own highly satisfied customers, then please don't explain to me how I should or should not be running my business.

The intent of my thread was to benefit those DIY'ers out there who are sometimes looking for that elusive combo of very small enclosure size and reasonable extension with response linearity.

No offense was intended, actually I was just trying to shed some little wisdom on mistakes I've made in the past. Cheers for the recommendation.

 

[zumbo]

Those enclosure recommendations are for a vehicle, not a home. Also they are much smaller than they should be when proper modeling is done using using the T/S parameters.

Keeping in mind my initial misunderstanding of the thread, I would like to ask this.

Seeing as how all of the subs offered by JL are recommended to go in a smaller sealed enclosure than you mentioned, wonder how they would perform in a larger enclosure? Or, how they would compare using your target cabinet size.

Seems to me you could reach or exceed the goal.

Certainly with a company as large as JL, they should have all of these specs on hand. Pretty sure they didn't just recommend an enclosure off the top of their head. I would imagine they have tested their drivers in numerous applications, and would willingly provide the data.

General thread reply.
FWIW, Image Dynamics has not yet entered the home audio market, Image Dynamics is car audio just like JL.

 

[annunaki]

Keeping in mind my initial misunderstanding of the thread, I would like to ask this.

Seeing as how all of the subs offered by JL are recommended to go in a smaller sealed enclosure than you mentioned, wonder how they would perform in a larger enclosure? Or, how they would compare using your target cabinet size.

Seems to me you could reach or exceed the goal.

Certainly with a company as large as JL, they should have all of these specs on hand. Pretty sure they didn't just recommend an enclosure off the top of their head. I would imagine they have tested their drivers in numerous applications, and would willingly provide the data.

General thread reply.
FWIW, Image Dynamics has not yet entered the home audio market, Image Dynamics is car audio just like JL.

The IDQ12D2v.3 is nearly on par with a 12W6v2. However I have not seen any dumax reports to verify the motor linearity is on par with the W6v2.

Regardless this performance difference will be fairly small, and the W6v2 will exceed at the extremes due to extremely low power compression.

The IDQ can be had for slightly less than the W6v2. The W6v2 does require a larger enclosure to hit the same Qtc though my laptop with WinIsd loaded on it is temporarily out of commission. I should have it up again over the next two to five days to show the difference.


As for the other JL subs what models are you referencing? The smallest box woofer they have is the W6v2 series which starts at over $400 from authorized dealers. All the other 12" woofers recommend at least 2.0ft^3 to hit the same Qtc. Some of which are not even suited to sealed enclosures due to too low of xmax.

Don't get me wrong, I like JL, I own several, but they are not the be all end all for subs.

 

[zumbo]

As for the other JL subs what models are you referencing? The smallest box woofer they have is the W6v2 series which starts at over $400 from authorized dealers. All the other 12" woofers recommend at least 2.0ft^3 to hit the same Qtc. Some of which are not even suited to sealed enclosures due to too low of xmax.

Well, when I misread your thread, I just went to the JL sight to check for quick info. Since I don't do DIY, I figured I would just check specs for all 12's to see the recommended sealed specs. Once I saw all of them were recommended below what you mentioned in your thread for a sealed enclosure, I just came back to the thread to post a simple reply. My intent was to have you research the rest, seeing as how I thought you were looking for suggestions. Since they all work in a smaller enclosure, I figured you would research what a larger enclosure may accomplish.

12W7-3 1.375 cu. ft.
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs_enclusure.php?series_id=9

12W6v2-D4 1.25 cu. ft
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs_enclusure.php?series_id=4

12W3v3-2 1.250 cu. ft
12W3v3-4 1.125 cu. ft
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs_enclusure.php?series_id=25

12W1v2-4 1.25 cu. ft
12W1v2-8 1.25 cu. ft.
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs_enclusure.php?series_id=16

12W0v2-4 1.375 cu. ft.
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs_enclusure.php?series_id=33

12WX-4 1.375 cu. ft
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs_enclusure.php?series_id=36

 

[annunaki]

Well, when I misread your thread, I just went to the JL sight to check for quick info. Since I don't do DIY, I figured I would just check specs for all 12's to see the recommended sealed specs. Once I saw all of them were recommended below what you mentioned in your thread for a sealed enclosure, I just came back to the thread to post a simple reply. My intent was to have you research the rest, seeing as how I thought you were looking for suggestions. Since they all work in a smaller enclosure, I figured you would research what a larger enclosure may accomplish.

12W7-3 1.375 cu. ft.
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs_enclusure.php?series_id=9

12W6v2-D4 1.25 cu. ft
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs_enclusure.php?series_id=4

12W3v3-2 1.250 cu. ft
12W3v3-4 1.125 cu. ft
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs_enclusure.php?series_id=25

12W1v2-4 1.25 cu. ft
12W1v2-8 1.25 cu. ft.
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs_enclusure.php?series_id=16

12W0v2-4 1.375 cu. ft.
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs_enclusure.php?series_id=33

12WX-4 1.375 cu. ft
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs_enclusure.php?series_id=36

Zumbo

I had no need to because I have modeled all of those drivers before. You should know that by now.

Some of them do model well in larger enclosures however. To me a sealed enclosure woofer, to produce adequate output with low enough response in modestly sized rooms, would need to have at least 17mm xmax or so on a 12" driver. This alone eliminates a lot of drivers of the bat.

The new W0v2's model terribly in both sealed or vented enclosures which is really disappointing.

 

[GranteedEV]

The new W0v2's model terribly in both sealed or vented enclosures which is really disappointing.

Looks like an Infinity Baffle sub to me...try modeling four or five of them in free space!

Since they all work in a smaller enclosure, I figured you would research what a larger enclosure may accomplish.

Not a JL driver, but just for reference here's about what difference box size will sort of give you a driver well suited to a sealed application, the Exodus Shiva X2 which IMO models wells for a 12.

The bigger box will also have less ringing although I guess in a sense the rolloff curve shows that.

What you see is that the small box would work nicely in a car because it has less low end, while the bigger box will have easier excursion and thus great efficiency (often too efficient.. the woofer may unload with minimal amp voltage!)