small dipole surround speakers

[sperho]

I have what appears to me, a very constrained speaker requirement to get surrounds added to my current 3.1 system. On one of my walls, the only place I can put a surround speaker is above a doorway (with door that closes). This position is the centerline of my seating position; my ears are about 1-2' from the back wall. There is 7" from the top of the door casing to the bottom of the crown moulding. I don't want the speaker to cover the casing. Oh, and for WAF, I must use a white or white-ish speaker. I'd really like to put a pair of dipoles in as surround because from what I understand, they have better dispersion than monopoles. So, I'd like to look there first, before going to a monopole. My budget is $400 or less.

FWIW: I currently have a 15’ x 20’ room. The TV is centered on one long wall and the couch is against the opposing wall. My mains are Polk RT55s, center is a Polk CS300, and my sub is a Paradigm PDR-10.

So far the only option that is within (sort of) is the Axiom Audio QS4s. They are 6.25" high, but they are a quadrupole and I'm concerned that the top driver being that close to the ceiling (~1.75" if position out from the crown a little bit) is that there would be some boominess qualities or worse.

I should also add that I am a woodworker with significant experience in building electronic circuits and have no qualms about building a custom pair of speakers, if someone were to point me in the right directions as far as plans and drivers/parts.

So a few questions:

1. Is there really that much of a difference in dipoles, or in this case quadrupoles, compared to monopoles in terms of dispersion?

2. Does anyone know of any other small, good quality, good looking dipoles, but within my budget that also come in white?

3. Is putting a quad that close to the ceiling a disaster?

4. What else am I not considering? Like just putting monopoles near the back corners firing into the centerline seating position, but over my head??

 

[FirstReflection]

While the "ideal" is to have di-pole surround speakers placed 2-3 feet above seated ear height, directly to either side of the seating position (so that your ears are in the null), in reality, we cannot always strictly adhere to this placement. Rather than trying to "shoe-horn" a solution into this suggested placement, it often makes more sense to simply compromise somewhat on the "ideal" placement in order to create a solution that better suits all of your needs as a whole.

With that in mind, I would recommend placing diffuse speakers (bi-pole, di-pole, quad-pole...anything other than monopole) on the wall behind you, rather than on the side walls. This placement can still work very well to create an enveloping sound field.

In an ideal world, I would bring your sofa further out into the room, but I suspect that the placement of your sofa has more to do with aesthetics and satisfying the significant other than it does with acoustics

In my personal experience, diffuse speakers on the back wall work quite well for creating the desired surround experience. I would recommend that you mount them to the wall about 2.5 feet above your seated ear height (likely about 5.5-6 feet from the floor) and space them apart so that they basically mirror the spacing of your Front L/R speakers. I have found that this placement also works quite well if you are using monopole surround speakers, but only if you have at least about 4-5 feet from the back wall to your ears. With your tighter spacing, diffuse speakers are a must, IMO.

Polk makes bi/di-pole surround speakers and they offer most of them in white. Unless you are planning to upgrade your front three speakers or switch to a different brand for the entire setup, I would personally look to keep the voice and timbre of the surround speakers as similar to the front speakers as possible. I understand that the height contraints probably led you to look at other brands, but if the back wall placement will work for you, I see no reason not to stick with Polk for the surround speakers as well.

Check out Polk's ebay store as they often have good deals or just search through their back catalogue to see if you can track down some of their bi/di-pole speakers that will work for you

Hope this helps!

 

[sperho]

I'll probably upgrade the Polks at some point, but life has too many other priorities at the moment... We have a series of evenly-spaced photographs on the back wall that would look pretty odd with a couple of speakers inserted in between them, even if the speakers are small. Really the only "allowable" space is where I described. I saw the Polk surrounds that you described and the RM8s would almost fit in the space I have to work with, but not quite, without really looking shoehorned.

 

[alphaiii]

Another option to consider would be omnipolar speakers like the Mirage OS3.

 

[sperho]

Another option to consider would be omnipolar speakers like the Mirage OS3.

I've look at that one, too an it's a bit tall to fit the shoebox location... It looks like it would disperse sound well, though.

 

[FirstReflection]

OK - I think I'm starting to get a better mental image of your room

First up - is there ANY way that you can pull your couch away from the back wall? I'm talking even just 1 foot. The reason I bring it up is because it is very very common to see the couch pushed right up against that back wall and to be blunt, that decreases the sound quality from the front soundstage tremendously. I've helped several friends set up their surround sound systems. In two cases that I clearly recall, we pulled the couch away from the back wall just about 1.5 feet. The wife of one fellow and the girlfriend of the other didn't even notice until I pointed it out to them. If you ask beforehand, they will usually say that they do not want you to move the couch. But if you just go ahead and do it, as with these two friends, they didn't even notice!

Having that gap between your head and the back wall makes a bigger difference than most people would ever expect. Human hearing is amazing. Our brain is able to ignore a HUGE number of distracting sounds if given just enough delay to do so. A 3 foot gap or greater is ideal, but even just the 1-2 foot gap is enough for your brain to be able to distinguish the direct sound coming from your speakers vs. the reflected sound off of the wall behind you. If your brain receives enough delay that it is able to tell the direct sound from the reflected sound, it is able to learn how to ignore the reflected sound to a large degree. Bottom line - dialogue becomes dramatically more intelligible and that is something that everyone can immediately notice and enjoy!

So that's an aside - but an important one!

Getting back to your original question about surround speakers:

Personally, I would not go for the spot above your door under any circumstances. From the way you have described the room, any speaker placed there would be very close to the ceiling and also quite close to the back wall. It's just an acoustical nightmare position and even a diffuse speaker wouldn't be much help because the direct and reflected sound would essentially combine into one, muddy-sounding mess

If mounting diffuse speakers on the back wall is a no-go, then you are left with Plan 'C' - monopole speakers on tall stands right next to the back wall and aimed directly at one another. With your couch pulled out even just 1-2 feet from the back wall, the monopole speakers can then be just behind you. With them up above you and firing directly at one another, you get sound reflected off of the back wall, off of the ceiling and NOT pointed directly at your ears, which results in the desired "enveloping" effect.

You'll be able to "pin-point" the sound from the surround speakers a little more than is ideal. You'll also get a more noticable (and possibly distracting result) when you sit far to one side and are thus much closer to one surround speaker than the other, but such is the compromise necessary in your situation

The stands I like best are these Sanus HF1

They are also made in silver if that would look better. Those stands allow you to get the surround speakers up to their ideal height and they come with a very wide variety of mounting options.

Polk makes many, small monopole speakers that would work well for this situation, so that shouldn't be a problem

 

[Patrukas777]

The def tech BP1.2x speakers are decent for 300-400 dollars. They come in black. The Axiom Audio QS4s are good too. Look around and see if you can demo any of them.

 

[CraigV]

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/KEFIQ8DSMPLA/KEF/iQ8DS-2-Way-5.25-Dipole-Surround-Speakers-in-Maple-pair-NEW-/1.html

Light in color
Fits your space
Fits your budget
Good sound & dispersion
I personally know of a member who uses them & is quite happy with them

 

[sperho]

OK - I think I'm starting to get a better mental image of your room

First up - is there ANY way that you can pull your couch away from the back wall? I'm talking even just 1 foot. The reason I bring it up is because it is very very common to see the couch pushed right up against that back wall and to be blunt, that decreases the sound quality from the front soundstage tremendously. I've helped several friends set up their surround sound systems. In two cases that I clearly recall, we pulled the couch away from the back wall just about 1.5 feet. The wife of one fellow and the girlfriend of the other didn't even notice until I pointed it out to them. If you ask beforehand, they will usually say that they do not want you to move the couch. But if you just go ahead and do it, as with these two friends, they didn't even notice!

Having that gap between your head and the back wall makes a bigger difference than most people would ever expect. Human hearing is amazing. Our brain is able to ignore a HUGE number of distracting sounds if given just enough delay to do so. A 3 foot gap or greater is ideal, but even just the 1-2 foot gap is enough for your brain to be able to distinguish the direct sound coming from your speakers vs. the reflected sound off of the wall behind you. If your brain receives enough delay that it is able to tell the direct sound from the reflected sound, it is able to learn how to ignore the reflected sound to a large degree. Bottom line - dialogue becomes dramatically more intelligible and that is something that everyone can immediately notice and enjoy!

So that's an aside - but an important one!

Getting back to your original question about surround speakers:

Personally, I would not go for the spot above your door under any circumstances. From the way you have described the room, any speaker placed there would be very close to the ceiling and also quite close to the back wall. It's just an acoustical nightmare position and even a diffuse speaker wouldn't be much help because the direct and reflected sound would essentially combine into one, muddy-sounding mess

If mounting diffuse speakers on the back wall is a no-go, then you are left with Plan 'C' - monopole speakers on tall stands right next to the back wall and aimed directly at one another. With your couch pulled out even just 1-2 feet from the back wall, the monopole speakers can then be just behind you. With them up above you and firing directly at one another, you get sound reflected off of the back wall, off of the ceiling and NOT pointed directly at your ears, which results in the desired "enveloping" effect.

You'll be able to "pin-point" the sound from the surround speakers a little more than is ideal. You'll also get a more noticable (and possibly distracting result) when you sit far to one side and are thus much closer to one surround speaker than the other, but such is the compromise necessary in your situation

The stands I like best are these Sanus HF1

They are also made in silver if that would look better. Those stands allow you to get the surround speakers up to their ideal height and they come with a very wide variety of mounting options.

Polk makes many, small monopole speakers that would work well for this situation, so that shouldn't be a problem

Moving the couch forward is a non-starter. I would love to, but unfortunately, my quest for good sound is not shared by my SO. She is just fine with the built-in speakers on the TV and even having my rudimentary system starts to push the limits. "Do we have to have those two front left and right speakers? I can't stand the concept of them being there." Enough said.

I'm going to have to post some pictures of my room. Unfortunately, I may have left out some practical room arrangement details that destroys Plan C. After reading your post, I'm questioning my ability to put surrounds in without having a sonic mess on my hands. This room is definitely not a room designed with home theater in mind and I have some very exacting constraints that are going to cause what appears to some, great compromise. I may end up just buying something and see if I can live with the location's faults.

 

[sperho]

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/KEFIQ8DSMPLA/KEF/iQ8DS-2-Way-5.25-Dipole-Surround-Speakers-in-Maple-pair-NEW-/1.html

Light in color
Fits your space
Fits your budget
Good sound & dispersion
I personally know of a member who uses them & is quite happy with them

They're a little tall, but I might be able to get away with them without making them look like I duct taped them there... Thanks for the recommendation - I had not seen those before.

 

[FirstReflection]

If you're as stuck as you've described, we still have a couple of options. As you can expect, we are moving further away from "ideal", but these are still possibilities

First, another aside - one day, at random, just try pulling the couch a little bit away from the back wall. Don't mention it, don't say anything about it - just pull it out a bit and see if your SO notices! If she does and she demands that you move it back, you can just say that you dropped something behind the couch or that you were cleaning back there and forgot to push it all the way back She'll probably know that you're lying, but it's an innocent enough lie that she ought to let it slide From my experience, there's a good chance that she won't even notice the change in couch position!

Back to the speakers - I'm just going to throw this out there, but is there any possibility of installing in-wall speakers in the back wall? If you are careful about your selection, we may be able to find some diffuse in-wall speakers that would fit in between the pictures on your back wall. Diffuse, in-wall surrounds would become virtually invisible (some even have paintable grills) so from an aesthetics stand-point, they might be a good choice!

If in-walls are a no go, I would actually suggest that you go with the over-the-door placement, but opt for monopole speakers, rather than di/bi-pole speakers. With the placement you've described, a diffuse speaker's reflections off of the back wall and ceiling would only serve to muddy the sound. A monopole would still produce plenty of reflections, but you will get more direct sound from that location, which, in this specific case, is a better choice. Since the speaker will be up high, there's little concern about the sound being too directional. I wouldn't call this at all ideal - it's essentially a top corner placement, but with all other options off the table, a monopole speaker is your best choice IMO.

I would recommend that you position the speaker so that it is facing parallel to the back wall and aimed downward slightly. You want the sound to pass over your head, so do NOT aim it down so much that it is pointing directly at your seated ear height. But aim it down a little bit so that you will get somewhat less of a reflection off of the ceiling.

 

[lsiberian]

Look at KEF eggs instead of dipoles. They are pretty compact yet powerful enough to be mains in many setups.

 

[Davemcc]

If in-walls are a no go, I would actually suggest that you go with the over-the-door placement, but opt for monopole speakers, rather than di/bi-pole speakers. With the placement you've described, a diffuse speaker's reflections off of the back wall and ceiling would only serve to muddy the sound. A monopole would still produce plenty of reflections, but you will get more direct sound from that location, which, in this specific case, is a better choice. Since the speaker will be up high, there's little concern about the sound being too directional. I wouldn't call this at all ideal - it's essentially a top corner placement, but with all other options off the table, a monopole speaker is your best choice IMO.

I would recommend that you position the speaker so that it is facing parallel to the back wall and aimed downward slightly. You want the sound to pass over your head, so do NOT aim it down so much that it is pointing directly at your seated ear height. But aim it down a little bit so that you will get somewhat less of a reflection off of the ceiling.

I have many of these same placement issues in my room, i.e. having to place surround above doors, seating against the back wall, etc. My solution ended up being exactly what I quoted above. I tried out a set of bi/di-poles, but my system is currently set up with a pair of Era D3's mounted above the door frames on each side of the room. It's not ideal but it works given the constraints of the room.

As far as speaker selection goes, you may have some luck with these in white with the wall mount hangers. http://www.orbaudio.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=6

 

[sperho]

Thanks again guys. Your insights are very helpful. A few pictures:

Front view from the back left corner. My mains are farther from the TV than ideal, but you can see why on the left... You can also see the in-walls for the whole house audio system. Not much stereo separation, but we don't really sit and listen critically when that system is playing music.

The red 'x' is the location of where the right surround would go. The white cabinet just to the left will eventually have doors on it and a set of dipoles might be able to be put on it, but my wife winces at that prospect.

A view from the front right corner of the room. I have a little more leeway here and a monopole on a stand would work here, but on the left side, not so much. The recliner would bump into them and people do sit in the recliner when watching movies, so the right rear would be lost on that position. Dipoles between the pictures illicit major (NO!) winces from my better half...

Those Orbs look pretty good. I'm actually considering a pair of those for the kitchen and I could try them out as surrounds mounted as per FirstReflection's suggestion and listen to how they sound there. I could try moving the couch forward, but I have a prediction how that'll turn out. I'll try anyway.

 

[FirstReflection]

OK!

Well...from everything that has been written and shown in the pics (big help, by the way!), I would definitely stick with my latest recommendation of monopole surrounds mounted where you have put the red 'X' marks.

That placement will cover the entire seating area and diffuse speakers in those locations would sound too muddy, IMO.

I've a feeling you could pull that couch out about 1 foot without the wife noticing...until the dog tries to walk back there

That is some MAJOR stereo separation up front! lol But I can see why you are so limited in placement options.

 

[sperho]

That is some MAJOR stereo separation up front!

Indeed. Amazingly enough, though, while sitting in the middle of the couch, I have to get up and check to see if my center channel is accidently on sometimes when I'm listening to two-channel stuff - that placement/speaker combo images very well...

 

[lsiberian]

I must also suggest not doing dipole.

Get a pair of KEF eggs. They are small and perfect for surround sound duty.
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/KEFCI400BL/KEF/Ci400-On-Wall-Speaker-Uni-Q-Array-BLACK-EACH-NEW-/1.html

Those are perfect for on wall mounting.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/KEFHTS20013BLKB/KEF/HTS2001.3-Satelllite-Speaker-in-Black-each/1.html

These too can be mounted on wall and can be put on the 2001 stands.
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/KEFKHT1005STNDBLK/KEF/KHT1005-System-Floor-Stands-Black-Pair/1.html


I use the 2001 series of speakers for my surrounds and they are the best speakers I've owned for their duty.

 

[bigvag]

dont know if anyone mentioned the paradigm cinema adp speakers yet.

 

[sperho]

Welp, yesterday I ordered a pair of the Orbs in white. We'll see how they look (WAF) and how they sound (SAF). I may experiment with a few different mounting angles and see how that affects my positional awareness of where the sound is originating.