slave amp / audio quality type question...

[Reorx]

After reading most of this thread it got me thinking.

Senerio:
You match a 100wpc receiver, with 100watt RMS speakers, and you listen to 2ch music 100% of the time at your normal audio listening level (not the receivers max)....

Now you take that same receiver, and use pre-outs with a quality slave amp that produces +200wpc RMS, run to the same speakers...at the same normal audio listening level...

Will you be able to hear a difference in the quality of sound?

Disclaimer:
Disregard receiver pre-out quality.
I kept the Senerio non-manufacture specific.
At normal, non-max speaker or receiver listening levels.
Disregard any coloring some external amps may add...
Disregard any type or acustical differences baised on room design or configuration.
Disregard cable types, interconnects, and sources.

 

[PENG]

Is that receiver a 2, 5, or 7 channel one? Without being manufacturer specific, at what price point?

 

[MDS]

Senerio:
You match a 100wpc receiver, with 100watt RMS speakers, and you listen to 2ch music 100% of the time at your normal audio listening level (not the receivers max)....

Now you take that same receiver, and use pre-outs with a quality slave amp that produces +200wpc RMS, run to the same speakers...at the same normal audio listening level...

Will you be able to hear a difference in the quality of sound?

Disclaimer:
Disregard receiver pre-out quality.
I kept the Senerio non-manufacture specific.
At normal, non-max speaker or receiver listening levels.
Disregard any coloring some external amps may add...
Disregard any type or acustical differences baised on room design or configuration.
Disregard cable types, interconnects, and sources.

Simple answer...No - especially if you disregard the items in the disclaimer.

If your normal listening level requires 10 watts from a 100 wpc receiver, then adding a 200 wpc receiver that is also only delivering 10 watts will do nothing. The rebuttal argument (anticipating it) will be that the 200 wpc amp will somehow be 'cleaner' with lower THD. It won't - as long as both are being driven within their limits (and at 10 wpc, clearly neither will be struggling).

The ONLY advantage to 'sipping on big watts' [mulester7 ] will be for high volume levels and extreme transients in the music which can demand up to 10x the power. But again, if the volume level is moderate even those transients won't tax the lower powered receiver to its limits.

 

[majorloser]

With your disclaimer you took out all of the reasons to buy the separate amp. If the 100 watts is enough for your listening needs, why upgrade. Doubling the available power only gains more headroom which you already stated in your disclaimer is not needed since you're only using a fraction of what the receiver is capable. (Granted the volume knob will be closer to minimum setting.) It's like the guy who owns the Ferarri just to drive back and forth to work and never opens it up. Is it a waste, Yes.

But it's when you look at quality of signal, quality of interconnects and THD of separate amp vs. receiver amp that you get any appreciation for the difference.

Your attempt to even the playing field with the disclaimer only shows reasons why there may be a desire to use an external amplifier. It's not always just a power issue.

 

[Reorx]

MDS - That what I thought to, but I've seen a tremendous amount of arguements in hijacked threads about this.

Peng - Receiver is functioning in 2ch stereo mode. Would it make a difference if it was a 2, 5, 6, 7 ch receiver? I guess it might when looking at the manufacture, and how the receivers amps are configured. I tried to eliminate that though...and keep the playing field level as majorloser said.

Reorx

 

[PENG]

MDS - That what I thought to, but I've seen a tremendous amount of arguements in hijacked threads about this.

Peng - Receiver is functioning in 2ch stereo mode. Would it make a difference if it was a 2, 5, 6, 7 ch receiver? I guess it might when looking at the manufacture, and how the receivers amps are configured. I tried to eliminate that though...and keep the playing field level as majorloser said.

Reorx

I asked that question because you did not specify a price range so a 7ch receiver would have the advantage in terms of having a stronger power supply. When you play only 2ch music, the power supply only has to deal with 2 amplifiers. If you look at the specs of some mid level receivers, they do put out at least the power they specify, usually a bit more. So assuming it is a 7ch receiver, you will likely have some decent headroom when listening to 2 ch music, i.e. as good as having a "slave" amp when things in you disclaimer are taken into account.

 

[mulester7]

I asked that question because you did not specify a price range so a 7ch receiver would have the advantage in terms of having a stronger power supply. When you play only 2ch music, the power supply only has to deal with 2 amplifiers. If you look at the specs of some mid level receivers, they do put out at least the power they specify, usually a bit more. So assuming it is a 7ch receiver, you will likely have some decent headroom when listening to 2 ch music, i.e. as good as having a "slave" amp when things in you disclaimer are taken into account.

.....Peng, I hold everyone here in high regard as fellow hobbyists....I'm tired of saying bigger watts with less mouths feeding from a more quality transformer gives better sound quality that is more musical and literally comes to life the more noticable the louder the content gets, sure, your guests in your home theater will never gripe with your using only a receiver, you and others are speaking with reasoning and not from experience beyond a handful of watts, you're desperately defending a receiver standing alone through reasoning, receivers have always been receivers with limited power, I have no choice but to shake my head at the assertion that multiple channels don't draw from the transformer of a receiver at the same time, and do whatever, it's your system....have a great day, and mule loves ya'.....

 

[majorloser]

.....Peng, I hold everyone here in high regard as fellow hobbyists....I'm tired of saying bigger watts with less mouths feeding from a more quality transformer gives better sound quality that is more musical and literally comes to life the more noticable the louder the content gets, sure, your guests in your home theater will never gripe with your using only a receiver, you and others are speaking with reasoning and not from experience beyond a handful of watts, you're desperately defending a receiver standing alone through reasoning, receivers have always been receivers with limited power, I have no choice but to shake my head at the assertion that multiple channels don't draw from the transformer of a receiver at the same time, and do whatever, it's your system....have a great day, and mule loves ya'.....

The only thing I would add is, "If you're not going to go "all the way" with separate pre/pro and amps, why would you buy a receiver and then add an amp?" For me a receiver is an "all-in-one" piece of equipment. I never really look at receivers as expandable.

 

[mulester7]

The only thing I would add is, "If you're not going to go "all the way" with separate pre/pro and amps, why would you buy a receiver and then add an amp?" I me a receiver is an "all-in-one" piece of equipment. I never really look at receivers as expandable.

.....and I embrace your reasoning, Major....this post is gonna' be long, I can feel it....but, Major, I'm in no way saying retire the transformer of the receiver with seven channels of slave amp....now, that's what I may do one day, is find a receiver that roasted marshmallows but still has a good pre-pro section to signal slave-amps exclusively....but, how many guys have posted and reported extreme happiness over slave-amping the front three channels?....Highway Patrol Man, sorry about the handle, I'm into this post and don't want to go check, anyhow, he works selling the stuff, in a brick-and-morter store....he listens to speakers and what powers them all day long....he also sells slave amps it would seem, and he reported a huge improvement with bigger watts....about a dozen other reports did the same....guys, what they reported, was something some feel and some can't....WRONG....doesn't your body get affected when a sound system is slaying you?....don't you got to move a little, at least a little, when it just sounds flatout GOOD!!....and you're with friends and comfortable?....

.....guys, here's what I hear, when I use bigger watts over a receiver.....with the receiver....I am standing, say, 50 feet from the live group's speakers....the speakers are putting out a reference level of 85db's right in front of the speaker.....by the time it gets to me it's less db's so I have paper scoops on the sides of my head cupping for my ears, to bring it back closer to 85db.....it sounds real good....plumb respectable....you bet....if the receiver can push this sound and not burn up, you got a good route to continue on with....but you might say what the heck, this mule-idiot-whatever guy really believes this, and I'll try it-shoot, I can return it and not have lost but about 30, and I can tell this mule pond-scum-idiot to hit the bricks with his thoughts and all his packages....

.....here's what happens with the slave amp, and the difference I hear.....

.....you have swapped the paper scoops for smaller ones, your Dumbo-Ears, and you're standing right in front of the live group's speakers.....the oscillations of the lows have more definition because you're right up in front of the live group's speakers, where it comes out clean, but progressively gets muddier from the time it comes out, much more quickly than the piercing mids and highs.....guys, all they can do for us is set up microphones, then mix it, whether live, or to make a recording....that's it....stuff recorded live with 32 mic input-boards can make us something pretty decent, though....anyhow, that's the difference to me....you're right up in front of the live group's speakers, and not 50 feet back, where it can't be helped, that "sound quality", is lost a bit, but it took walking up close to realize it....at a live concert, if there's people dancing in the audience, and I saw dancing at Country concerts twice, aren't the people usually dancing up front, in front, of them there output speakers?....isn't it amazing the sound they get with some of those stacks at concerts?....guys, there's something to it with bigger watts, and yes, more inefficient speakers would notice it most, but you'll feel like you walked closer to the live group's speakers with any sensitivity rating, or my name ain't mule pond-scum-idiot......

.....I just got called on a Tuesday, can you believe it?....got an engine move to North Platte from NLR....it will be 8 motors/locos and no cars....my kind of train to have to walk in the event of trouble....see you guys in a couple of days....Pyhhro, where you at?....you have a lot of knowledge about this hobby....don't tell an old fart he did or didn't hear something....humor the idiot....we're all idiots to some degree....Idiot Meter from Rat Shack, they're cheap, I blew up two.....

 

[eirepaul]

let's keep it simple

Reorx, I'll keep this simple for you. If you do not listen at very loud levels ("reference levels" to some people, whatever that means) you do not need an additional power amp for your receiver. However, if you enjoy listening consistently at very loud levels ("loud" depends on source material, size of room, neighbors, etc.) that really push your receiver to it's limits, then additional amplification will provide that extra headroom you will need. It really is quite simple. I have been referring here to two-channel operation but with multi-channel operation this is even more true.

 

[PENG]

You quoted what I said, but would you please read one more time what you quoted me saying, and then tell me if you might have misunderstood what I said.......

I do have a couple of power amps myself, the smaller one (200WX2 8 ohms or 350WX2, 4 ohms) is hooked up to my receiver. So I do have experience beyond a few watts.

We may diagree from time to time, but this time I was strictly responding to the poster's specific (please read his disclaimer) question. Again, we may disagree another day, but not today. So please stay calm and don't shake your head, yet......