Shopping for a subwoofer

[josko]

I'd like to buy a high-end subwoofer but am stuck between buying on line and possibly getting stuck with something I don't like, and paying what seems like an extra $1k to a 'brick&mortar' store that will let me audition at least some of the units I'm looking at.
Here's where I'm at:
Fronts: B&W 803d powered by Levinson 334
Rears: B&W 805s powered by Adcom 7000
Center: B&W HTM2d powered by Adcom 7000
Sub: cheapo Polk

It's used 70% for music (just the fronts) and 30% for video content as a 5.1 system. Room is 16' x 24' with a complex high ceiling. I went to considerable trouble with acoustic treatments and eq. software to remove any deep spectral nulls.
I understand the 'logical' sub for this setup is the B&W 825 or 855, but I've been also looking at JL 112/113, Velodyne DD 15/18, and now SVS SB13. I'm worried about buying one 'sight unseen'. I believe I'd want a sealed unit since I'd like reproduction accuracy more than special effects and 'boominess'.
There are two local high-end dealers, one of whom stocks Velodyne and B&W, and the other JL Audio and B&W. I'd love to go audition, but their prices are about $1k more than what I see online, and I don't want to 'jerk them around' auditioning and then go buy online.

How should I approach this?

 

[GranteedEV]

I'd like to buy a high-end subwoofer but am stuck between buying on line and possibly getting stuck with something I don't like, and paying what seems like an extra $1k to a 'brick&mortar' store that will let me audition at least some of the units I'm looking at.
Here's where I'm at:
Fronts: B&W 803d powered by Levinson 334
Rears: B&W 805s powered by Adcom 7000
Center: B&W HTM2d powered by Adcom 7000
Sub: cheapo Polk

It's used 70% for music (just the fronts) and 30% for video content as a 5.1 system. Room is 16' x 24' with a complex high ceiling. I went to considerable trouble with acoustic treatments and eq. software to remove any deep spectral nulls.
I understand the 'logical' sub for this setup is the B&W 825 or 855, but I've been also looking at JL 112/113, Velodyne DD 15/18, and now SVS SB13. I'm worried about buying one 'sight unseen'. I believe I'd want a sealed unit since I'd like reproduction accuracy more than special effects and 'boominess'.
There are two local high-end dealers, one of whom stocks Velodyne and B&W, and the other JL Audio and B&W. I'd love to go audition, but their prices are about $1k more than what I see online, and I don't want to 'jerk them around' auditioning and then go buy online.

How should I approach this?

1)er...what exactly makes a sealed box accurate and a ported box "special effects and boomy"? Seriously, since you're looking for high end sub performance what I recommend is a large ported sub that can extend +/- 3db low into 14-16hz. The advantage to extending low means that musical frequencies down to 27hz or so will experience a more flat response curve which will mean it's more "accurate". Of course it also needs low group delay for tightness, and an amplifier with a respectable damping factor to control it. - it's not just special effects to have sub sonics, it's increasing the sub's effective frequency response range and in effect making it a more accurate reproducer of recordings in higher freqeuncies (well, if you call 27-45hz or so a high frequency LOL). I just posted this two of three days ago and while i hate to regurgitate the same thing IMO it seems relevent to this thread as well: which of the following frequency response curves seems like it most accurately reproduces music?

the green, is a large ported sub. the red is large and sealed... the blue is a smaller, higher ported design and the pink is a smaller sealed design. All of the above are just theoreticals in an anechoic environment and of course room gain gives you a different response curve but it's better to EQ down (remove peaks at a given power level) than to have to EQ up (take away amplifier headroom). Basically what you want should be

- Multiples - either 2 or 4 in order to even out in-room response
- A quality high excursion driver that can dig low but still sing high up to ~90hz.
- A larger enclosure - unless you've got like a 21" driver with a top notch design, bigger really is better.
- Very careful attention to placement. a very good sub can sound boomy in the wrong position
- an effective EQ - consider alternatives to the popular ones; as some of them like the velodyne are seemingly rather inaccurate.

I'm a believer that you can't beat DIY when it comes to subs because of how much control you have and how great modern software simulations are - the problem with ready-made subs is that they're usually smaller than ideal because it's just not economical to make a sub that's too big and then ship it... If I were buying a sub from a company though, the ones I'd look into would all be online.. let's assume a rough budget of 4-5000? I hope that's not too high.

A pair of Seaton Submersives (sealed)
A pair of Elemental Designs A7 - 900 (vented)
4 x of Rythmik FV15HP (vented) or F25 (sealed)
A pair of SVS PC-13U (Vented)
4 x JTR Captivator with a pair of fan-modded EP2500s powering it
4 x HSU ULS 15 (their quad drive package)


maybe even try emailing those companies and requesting some near field response curves just to see what kind of performance you're gonna be looking at.

If you did have to go brick and mortar, definitely consider the Velodyne DD18 for its servo, or a JL Fathom or a pair of RBH 1010-SEP/R. Again, one sub at that price range probably won't be as clean as two or especially four for the same total value and especially not if you're factoring in iD brands' flagships. DOn't be afraid of them, most of these companies have 30 day return policies if you ultimately find it didn't knock your socks off. All the ones i recommended are great subs, period. Definitely consider the eDs and Rhythmik venteds IMO... give those companies a call and ask them if they consider their flagship vented subs as musical as their flagship sealed subs.

Of course, if you're willing to go DIY, with $4-5k you could easily makea pair of totally monstrous subs that will be musical, powerful, accurate, and effortless. BTW, on that note, i recently emailed a cabinet maker for a quote to do that part for me and he wanted 1800 dollars and said it was because of the piano hi-gloss finish i requested... i didn't even spend 1000 on the driver/amp and the MDF probably costs ~200 at most...so on that note - you're probably paying mostly for the finishing labour with a lot of boutique B&M subs, not to mention all those other overheads like dealership markup. Is the finish 150% more important than the performance?

 

[josko]

Thanks for the prompt response. I only mention sealed vs ported issues becuase I've been told sealed designs tend to emphasize transient response over low end sound pressure level (SPL), and I've heard some ported designs that clearly emphasized the opposite.

I agree with you that SPL is important but also believe that for music reproduction, transient response needs to be considered, as well.

Appreciate the list of subs you provide, but that still leaves me with a quandry of buying sight unseen (or should I say sound unheard). I did notice SVS has a 45-day no-questions return, and I need to consider how much I'm willing to spend buying and returning subs to really find the one I want. Looking at shipping costs, it makes a grand spend auditioning at an audio store make a lot more sense.

And finally, you got me thinking about multiples. Should I be thinking about 2 DD-12's vs one DD-18 or to JL 110's vs a single 113? I already have a Behringer Feedback Destroyer and am familiar with Room EQ Wizard.

 

[lsiberian]

well many of those subs are fantastic, but you also need to be practical about what you can put in the room and what you're needs are. Sticking a big ole sub may look terrible in a living room. I'd say stick with SVS and find what you need from their website. All of their subs are excellent, they have great service, and you will have a hard time besting them commercially. DIY requires a lot of time, effort, tools, patience, and handyman skills. I enjoy building subs, but I'd never suggest it to someone not wanting to turn it into a hobby or without access to a nice woodshop. If you want to consider that route there are plentiful options, but none cheaper than the Dayton Reference line. 1 placed in each corner would give you bass nirvana.

 

[GranteedEV]

I agree with you that SPL is important but also believe that for music reproduction, transient response needs to be considered, as well.

I agree, but proper tuning and box size isn't just about raw SPL, it does in fact have a significant effect on transient response. Here's something good to read:

http://diyaudiocorner.tripod.com/dilemma.htm

If you can get your qtc to anywhere between ~.577 to ~.707, you're going to have very quality transient response plus the added benefit of flat frequency response. The elemental designs vented one I posted seems like such an ideal subwoofer design that i'm sure it has a qtc somewhere in that range! It may seem like a gamble but a pair of those could possibly become the most impressive subwoofer you'll ever experience in every aspect. the only tradeoff is that it weighs... a lot. Like... a lot. Like.. buy a pallet jack for it.

Appreciate the list of subs you provide, but that still leaves me with a quandry of buying sight unseen (or should I say sound unheard).

A lot of iD dealers have customers who are so satisfied with their purchase that they're willing to invite potential buyers to their homes for an audition. Definitely consider tracking down an owner of some of those. Also hold out for the audioholics subwoofer comparision in a couple months. Sure you can compare two subs at a dealership to see which sounds better to you, but

1) Does sounding better to your ears necessarily indicate more accurate reproduction? It might have more "slam" which might sound better to your ears but that doesn't garuntee that's what the recording sounded like. The goal of a speaker is to reproduce something, not to color/distort it to your likings, after all - that SPL graph I showed wasn't to show that ported gets louder, it was to show that ported is more efficient and has flatter frequency response if done right - the blue line is supposed to show you a more typical ported enclosure that causes you to think of them as boomy. The green line is the one that's ideal.

2) What if you're missing out on something better just because of your apprehension? I definitely recommend putting on a halloween disguise and going into an A/V B&M shop to listen, then order any of those online and see if you're dissapointed or not. SVS is the popular one but you might find some of the other options to ultimately be a better choice... research research research!

And finally, you got me thinking about multiples. Should I be thinking about 2 DD-12's vs one DD-18 or to JL 110's vs a single 113?

Possibly, depending on the size of your room and your own tendency to be satisfied. Two 12s will sound cleaner, if you get 1 18 you can always consider getting a second later which of course is going to be better better.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I can't provide much more than what Granteed did but I have had a bunch of subs in the past 4 years. They have ranged from one of the best DIY's I have ever heard to upper end consumer subs from Velodyne, JL, Paradigm and SVS.

At the end of the day, SVS resides in my house and will for along time. 2(or more) subs is best for leveling out the room but the size still depends on the size of your room.

The Submersive is about the only other I would consider but even though they look great and perform great, they are still a little to close to "a guy building out of his garage" for me to dump 2k on.

 

[GranteedEV]

The Submersive is about the only other I would consider but even though they look great and perform great, they are still a little to close to "a guy building out of his garage" for me to dump 2k on.

Not making generalizations or anything but it's kind of funny how we all have aversions to "a guy building out of his garage" yet not to "a bunch of underpaid people going through the motions building someone else's design on the other side of the world"

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Not making generalizations or anything but it's kind of funny how we all have aversions to "a guy building out of his garage" yet not to "a bunch of underpaid people going through the motions building someone else's design on the other side of the world"

I hear ya but at least the ones in Ohio stand by their products no matter what.

 

[its phillip]

Yeah, and Mr. Seaton is probably a bit more skilled than your average guy building in his garage.

 

[GranteedEV]

Yeah, and Mr. Seaton is probably a bit more skilled than your average guy building in his garage.

Isn't he also a consultant or something for plenty of PA companies including JTR and servodrive?

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Yeah, and Mr. Seaton is probably a bit more skilled than your average guy building in his garage.

Yep and Mark likely has as much or more knowledge than anyone in this field and I don't want/should not have used him as an example of what I was trying to get across.

Let's say you send money to a 1 or 2 man show and 1 or 2 of them get maried and go on a honeymoon, a sub falls on them and they don't "make it" or they get thrown in jail for drunk driving...I wonder what happens to your sub or your money??????????

 

[GranteedEV]

So what you're saying..






.. is that we need to always have 100 dollars in reserve in order to hire ninjas to go get the money and subwoofer back?

 

[billy p]

Yep and Mark likely has as much or more knowledge than anyone in this field and I don't want/should not have used him as an example of what I was trying to get across.

Let's say you send money to a 1 or 2 man show and 1 or 2 of them get maried and go on a honeymoon, a sub falls on them and they don't "make it" or they get thrown in jail for drunk driving...I wonder what happens to your sub or your money??????????

Hum...I wonder how that company in OHIO started off...maybe in some garage somewhere, just like many others....

 

[bandphan]

Hum...I wonder how that company in OHIO started off...maybe in some garage somewhere, just like many others....

Same as JL I bet . They guy that started Niles Audio worked for Sound Advice here in FL when they were just a car stereo company.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Hum...I wonder how that company in OHIO started off...maybe in some garage somewhere, just like many others....

But I didn't buy from them at that time.

 

[billy p]

But I didn't buy from them at that time.

Okay...so what took you so long....

 

[its phillip]

He had to wait for them to move out of the garage, obviously

 

[josko]

OK guys, stay with me a little longer, please, as I pick through the SVS offerings

Could anyone compare the PB-13 Ultra with the new SB13 Plus for me? Room is 16'x24' with an avg. ceiling of 10' and lots of height changes. On one long end, there are two 4' wide passageways to the rest of the house. TV is in the 8' section between the passageways.

Budget and space will allow for 2 SB-13's, but I think two PB-13 would be a bit much, space-wise. Doable, though, with a little spousal negotiating, if there's a strong reason to do it.

Should I also be looking at cylinder subs? Or maybe more smaller ones? My gear is listed in the original post, and again, it's used used 70% for music with just the two fronts. I don't think I'd play loud, but soundstaging and accuracy would be important. Thanks in advance.

 

[Matt34]

Another brick and mortar sub that might be worth a look is the Definitive Technology Trinity sub.

 

[ratm]

Every one on here has far more experience than I, but given his that tastes are leaning towards music, should the OP look at something like an A7s-450?