Shopping for a Subwoofer...

[Tom Steele]

Hi,

I need some advilce. I have had my second Yamaha YST-800 sub fry within a couple of years and I need something reliable. I LOVED the sound of this sub. No one seems to have any experience with it and because of that, most folks seem to think it is an "ok sounding" sub at best.

I'd argue that it is one of the best sounding subs I've heard. Tight and punchy, (10 inch, long throw driver, they claim it is 1000 watts, but I think the RMS is around 300) and able to fill up my HUGE family room. (24x21, TWO STORY ROOM, connected to open breakfast area and kitchen and really open to the entry and dining room as well. HUGE cubic feet here!)

The Yamaha YST-800 would be all I ever need except, as you can read in another of my posts, they keep failing on me and I can't afford to singlehandedly keep Yamaha in business by purchasing their poorly protected subs.

So... I am looking to replace my second YST-800. What I'm hoping for is suggestions on a sub that is as good, or better, in the $600-$999 range.

I did some local shopping today. Circuit City and Best Buy appear to have all but abandoned their Home Theater sections. CC had a Velodyne DPS-150 and I wasn't at ALL impressed. BB had a JBL EP250 but it was set up so you could only listen to it by itself. That wasn't helpful! Those appeared to be the highest quality/price subs each of those stores had.

Tweeter was an interesting experience. I spent an hour waiting for salespeople to find cds and dvds so they could try to sell me a Martin Logan Grotto. They spent a lot of time telling me how great it would be and how much better it would be than my Yamaha had been. They were full of crap.

I don't know if they were doing something wrong, or if ML is over-rated, but the sub was anemic and when they pushed it on Eagles Hell Freezes Over it rattled. The Yamaha YST-800 would eat its lunch - if it was alive.

I asked the guy about a floor model Mirage (OM-200) with two 8's in it (wasn't familiar with Mirage, but two eights sounded like it might have punch, and power) and he couldn't get in that room because they were working on it.

It was like they didn't want my money.

A local store called StereoVideo was helpful, and had the B&W series set up. I listened to the 600, 675 and 700. The 600 and 675 sounded a little "boomy" to me. We listened to Pearl Harbor on the 700 and something was rattling like crazy. Don't know if it was the sub, or something in the rack, or what - but it sounded like the speaker. They also had the Infinity PS120 and I couldn't hear it doing much at all. It may not have been set up well. How do you know? I may go back to the store and make them really work for their money and give me a good side by side comparison with the Pearl Harbor soundtrack and compare them side by side on the same system. The 700 was on the high side of my price range, but if it truly kicked butt I'd pay it and be happy. I just wasn't sold on my first listen.

Finally, I have a Velodyne CHT-12 in my master bedroom. It is a modest setup with a 5430 Yamaha 65watt/channel surround, small yamaha satellite speakers and a Sony XBR 32 inch tube tv from around 1992 that is still respectable today. The Velodyne sounds good, but I don't know if it has the power for my family room. Maybe a CHT-15?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

-Tom Steele

 

[sheep]

Energy

Energy just came out with a new line of subwoofers to repace the .2 series.
they are as follows.
8.3 - 8inch 100watt rms
10.3 - 10 inch 200watt rms
12.3 - 12inch 300watt rms

the have front firing driversand down firing ports.

the 12 inch is 900.00 CAD
it sounded really good when i tested it in a 15 by 15 room. i don't know how well it would work in your room but it was at half power and did fine.

sheep

 

[annunaki]

Tom,

Hello again. Listening to subwoofers in a store is not a good way to demo them. I would suggest finding a shop that would allow you to take the sub home for a day and try it out in YOUR own home. Or a shop that will let you mess around with the equipment for awhile to veryify how it was set up, or aet it up to your liking. One never knows who set up the demo system and/or if it was set up properly.

 

[Tom Steele]

Tom,

Hello again. Listening to subwoofers in a store is not a good way to demo them. I would suggest finding a shop that would allow you to take the sub home for a day and try it out in YOUR own home. Or a shop that will let you mess around with the equipment for awhile to veryify how it was set up, or aet it up to your liking. One never knows who set up the demo system and/or if it was set up properly.

Annunaki,

I'd agree with you on this, but I'm afraid I'm geographically challenged. You could do it with Circuit City, they have a great return policy - but they have almost nothing to try.

There are very few stores in my area that carry anything serious. My best bet would be the Stereo Video store with the B&W gear.

Thanks!

-Tom Steele

 

[Ben Stern]

Easy enough solution

S V S or H S U OK?

 

[Tom Steele]

S V S or H S U OK?

If the Velodyne SPL-1200 II's don't happen (I've ordered them, but most vendors are out of stock and say three weeks, the vendor I ordered from SWEARS they are in stock. I'm hoping they are telling the truth.) then I will seriously look at SVS. I hadn't considered them because I was originally trying to stay in the $600 range, but now I am looking more at <$1,000 and the SVS looks like a good one to compare.

Question, would you describe them as punchy? I.e. tight controlled but powerful and deep bass?

TIA,

-Tom Steele

 

[Ben Stern]

SV subs

SV subs are hard to describe because they don't editorialize. What's on the source is what they play back. In others words, they are true high fidelity.

 

[cbraver]

If you like the long throw design you should consider Sunfire. They seem to do well in large rooms like yours.

Like any sub, you should listen to it first. People seem to be split about them.

I heard two Sunfire Signatures in a home theater (never heard them playing music) and they were impressive. Both were placed offset in corners and they pounded in the movie.

-Chad

 

[av_phile]

I would suggest that you try and visit a store that can demo a REL Strata or any REL subwoofer. I know it's way above your $1,000 budget. But I would still give the brand and similar makes a listen if only to convince yourself that there's really nothing out there worth your salt above your budget. But in case you find it, you wouldn't want anything else just because it's within your budget. Personally, from your Yamaha sub to anything within your budget, I seriously doubt you'd be graduating outside of the same design compromises and limitations that comprise a $1,000 sticker price. So give REL a listen and just confirm to yourself you won't be missing much with anything above your budget. But that's just me.

 

[Tom Steele]

Thanks for the good suggestions and off-the-beaten path look at things!

-Tom Steele

 

[cbraver]

I enjoyed reading av_philes outlook.

I'm studying engineering, and sadly one thing I have learned is that manufacturing is creating a product to the lowest standards possible to sell it at a given price.

Now before I get yelled at, I agree, that works both ways in some industries (like high-end audio). They make a product that they have pride in, but then the result is the same, they sell it for the most they can get (or, if your a glass half empty guy like me, they sell a product with the lowest standards possible for a given price ).

If your not making profit, you better have some government contracts. And somehow I doubt speaker companies get much of those.

While your at looking into higher end subs, check out what Velodyne and M&K have to offer higher up their lines. Even if you don't buy, demoing is fun, right!

-Chad

 

[Aliixer]

Asw 675

Try to audition this subwoofer, I have two of them and placement is very important. I too was not impressed with the sub while auditioning it in the store. The store allowed me to take it home and try it...I took the asw600 and the asw675....By far the 675 was superior. By no means boomy..

 

[Tom Steele]

Try to audition this subwoofer, I have two of them and placement is very important. I too was not impressed with the sub while auditioning it in the store. The store allowed me to take it home and try it...I took the asw600 and the asw675....By far the 675 was superior. By no means boomy..

I have a Velodyne SPL-1200 II ordered (I think, if they were telling the truth about being in stock.)

If that falls through, I may audition the 675 or the 700 at my home, assuming they allow that sort of thing.

-Tom Steele

 

[av_phile]

I enjoyed reading av_philes outlook.

I'm studying engineering, and sadly one thing I have learned is that manufacturing is creating a product to the lowest standards possible to sell it at a given price.

Now before I get yelled at, I agree, that works both ways in some industries (like high-end audio). They make a product that they have pride in, but then the result is the same, they sell it for the most they can get (or, if your a glass half empty guy like me, they sell a product with the lowest standards possible for a given price ).

If your not making profit, you better have some government contracts. And somehow I doubt speaker companies get much of those.

While your at looking into higher end subs, check out what Velodyne and M&K have to offer higher up their lines. Even if you don't buy, demoing is fun, right!

-Chad

Thanks a lot for enjoying my post. I just have a few questions for a young studious mind like yours, if you don't mind. Hopeflly they can refresh my old and tired mind.

What and whose standards are you refering to? When they design a product based on specfications that conform to a standard, what lowest specficiation standards are your talking about? Are the lowest specfiication standards of B&W the same as that of an Axiom? Are those of Klipsh the same as that of a Mission? Are the minimum product specification standards of a Ferrari the same as that of a Toyota? I hope you're not confusing product specification with statistical quality control standards. The latter can follow the same ISO standards across many companies. But product specification standards are entirely another.

If I may suggest, perhaps when you finish your engineering studies, do get employment as a designer at a sleazy speaker factory. Then after a few months try to seek design employment at a B&W factory. Then get back to me and confirm that what you are saying is true. Thanks.

 

[Yamahaluver]

Yep, especially stay off mediocore brands like Yamaha, my now even Toyota has joined the list as I can see.

 

[Mudcat]

Are the minimum product specification standards of a Ferrari the same as that of a Toyota? I hope you're not confusing product specification with statistical quality control standards. The latter can follow the same ISO standards across many companies. But product specification standards are entirely another.

Living near a dealer in Northern VA which happens to sell Mercedes, Ferrari's and Lambos, and another dealer which sells Toyotas, and having both an MB and a Toyota. I can guarentee that my MB (E430) and all Ferraris spend more time on the lift than any Toyota ever would. In fact, a friends 356 spent about 90 days in the shop for the three years he owned it, my wife's Sienna spent about 4 days (all scheduled maintenance). This is typical not an exception.

If I may suggest, perhaps when you finish your engineering studies, do get employment as a designer at a sleazy speaker factory. Then after a few months try to seek design employment at a B&W factory. Then get back to me and confirm that what you are saying is true. Thanks.

You really like being insulting don't you.
Notice I did not end that sentence with a question mark?

Just out of curosity, do you (AV-pile) have a technical degree - something that required a bit of intelligence to obtain, or a bachelor or arts.

Sorry I left the h out.

 

[Yamahaluver]

My hats off to you Mudcat, when are you coming over to India, got a bottle of Bushmills to share with you and some real good tandoori cuisine.

I have a MB as well as a Toyota, both 4WD, the MB crap has almost driven me bankrupt, not only did it cost three times the price of my Toyota, I have to use the MB sparingly as it develops faults within a few hard off road miles.

No wonder J.D. Powers, WHICH magazine gave thumbs up to Toyota and Honda and huge thumbs down to over priced junks like MB, BMW, Audi etc. as a matter of fact, they scored lower than Korean cars which surprisingly have made huge strides in the QC department.

 

[Rob Babcock]

My advice- forget powered subs.

My advice, Tom: buy a passive sub driven by an outboard amp. I can't tell you how many subs I killed before I got wise to that. It seems to me that even some expensive powered subs use pretty cheaply made plate amps. Think about the environment a plate amp has to survive in- it's crammed into a compact box with a lot of heat & subjected to constant vibration. It's a wonder any of them last. Just look at the warranty of a typical powered sub. That will tell you how long the manufacture thinks the thing can survive.

With an outboard amp, you won't have this problem. The amp can sit on your rack, cool as a cucumber. Plus it won't be shaken to death by the action of the driver. Another nice bonus is that it's easy to adjust the volume. Just why is it that on 95% of powered subs, the %^# volume control is on the back of the sub?

Some good brands that make passive subs: Hsu, VMPS, Adire Audio, SVS & Selah Audio. I'm sure there's brands I'm forgetting, but the ones I've listed here are some of the stoutest subs in the world by sheer SPL. S&V magazine measurements of the Adire Sadhara (sp?) showed tremendous output, and you'll find scores of great reviews for the Hsu & SVS subs (their volume at very loooowwww freqs is staggering). Selah makes a sealed sub called the "Whomp" that's extremely tight & musical, while VMPS uses passive radiators and claims > 110dB @ 14 hz!

Good candidates for a sub amp: used Adcom GFA-555 (can usually pick up for $350-400), new amps by Crown, Samson, Carver & QSC. Pro amps work very well for subs; they usually have volume controls, heavy duty protection circuits, hi powered cooling & they're usually stable into very low impedance loads (often down to 1 ohm). They're also fairly inexpensive.

BTW, these guys are all direct-sales, although they have a few dealers. All of them offer best-in-class customer service, and if by some incredibly bad luck you manage to blow them up, you can usually get just the driver & replace it "in the field."

Just my $.02 worth.

 

[Tom Steele]

My advice, Tom: buy a passive sub driven by an outboard amp. I can't tell you how many subs I killed before I got wise to that. It seems to me that even some expensive powered subs use pretty cheaply made plate amps. Think about the environment a plate amp has to survive in- it's crammed into a compact box with a lot of heat & subjected to constant vibration. It's a wonder any of them last. Just look at the warranty of a typical powered sub. That will tell you how long the manufacture thinks the thing can survive.

With an outboard amp, you won't have this problem. The amp can sit on your rack, cool as a cucumber. Plus it won't be shaken to death by the action of the driver. Another nice bonus is that it's easy to adjust the volume. Just why is it that on 95% of powered subs, the %^# volume control is on the back of the sub?

Some good brands that make passive subs: Hsu, VMPS, Adire Audio, SVS & Selah Audio. I'm sure there's brands I'm forgetting, but the ones I've listed here are some of the stoutest subs in the world by sheer SPL. S&V magazine measurements of the Adire Sadhara (sp?) showed tremendous output, and you'll find scores of great reviews for the Hsu & SVS subs (their volume at very loooowwww freqs is staggering). Selah makes a sealed sub called the "Whomp" that's extremely tight & musical, while VMPS uses passive radiators and claims > 110dB @ 14 hz!

Good candidates for a sub amp: used Adcom GFA-555 (can usually pick up for $350-400), new amps by Crown, Samson, Carver & QSC. Pro amps work very well for subs; they usually have volume controls, heavy duty protection circuits, hi powered cooling & they're usually stable into very low impedance loads (often down to 1 ohm). They're also fairly inexpensive.

BTW, these guys are all direct-sales, although they have a few dealers. All of them offer best-in-class customer service, and if by some incredibly bad luck you manage to blow them up, you can usually get just the driver & replace it "in the field."

Just my $.02 worth.

Hey, you just gave me an idea to hold me over for a little bit. I have a crown sitting around. I could plug it up to the Yamaha and drive it for the time being... It would make my search less urgent.

Now where is that amp...

-Tom Steele

 

[cbraver]

Excuse the delay in response, I have been busy. Sure B&W has higher standards (as a general sense) then some brand at Best Buy, but they also charge more. If I worked at the sleezy speaker company you speak of, they would probably have lower standards then the studio speaker company down the road, but the studio company also charges more for their product. It goes back to the "you get what you pay for attitude." Manufactures get the highest price they think they can get for a product, or you can reverse that and say they make the cheapest product for a given price. My statement was a general one applying to the products as a whole, not a specific aspect of them. It's also a glass half empty way to look at it, intended to be of humourous nature and small talk.

-Chad

Thanks a lot for enjoying my post. I just have a few questions for a young studious mind like yours, if you don't mind. Hopeflly they can refresh my old and tired mind.

What and whose standards are you refering to? When they design a product based on specfications that conform to a standard, what lowest specficiation standards are your talking about? Are the lowest specfiication standards of B&W the same as that of an Axiom? Are those of Klipsh the same as that of a Mission? Are the minimum product specification standards of a Ferrari the same as that of a Toyota? I hope you're not confusing product specification with statistical quality control standards. The latter can follow the same ISO standards across many companies. But product specification standards are entirely another.

If I may suggest, perhaps when you finish your engineering studies, do get employment as a designer at a sleazy speaker factory. Then after a few months try to seek design employment at a B&W factory. Then get back to me and confirm that what you are saying is true. Thanks.