Serious question; SACD over HDMI

[PeterWhite]

The Oppo DV-980H outputs SACD over the HDMI connection. This will enable bass management in a receiver that supports that function. I have the Onkyo TX-SR805 receiver. My Onkyo 504 DVD player will only output SACD over the multichannel outputs which are analog and therefor bypass bass management.

Does anyone know if the Oppo is compatible with the Onkyo receiver connected this way?

 

[jostenmeat]

Well, I can think of one way to find out... try it!

I plugged in some keywords for you at AVS. Numerous hits, just glanced at one thread. Start reading at post #11 for some in depth talk about Oppo SACD playback. Even better probably would be to just go directly to the owners thread. Anyways, they are discussing the use of optical/toslink. And also the ability to pass 48kHz, or not, perhaps depending on the source being "unprotected".

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1011751

the owner's thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=879341

please use the search function(S). very flexible: you can search either

within thread
within sub forum
within all areas

 

[j_garcia]

I'd say give Oppo a call. They should be able to answer that for you

 

[PeterWhite]

Well, I can think of one way to find out... try it!

I don't own the Oppo. I'll check the links.

 

[TLS Guy]

The Oppo DV-980H outputs SACD over the HDMI connection. This will enable bass management in a receiver that supports that function. I have the Onkyo TX-SR805 receiver. My Onkyo 504 DVD player will only output SACD over the multichannel outputs which are analog and therefor bypass bass management.

Does anyone know if the Oppo is compatible with the Onkyo receiver connected this way?

We have been over this again and again. SACD is DSD and not PCM You can not process in DSD.

So if a player outputs in analog from the DSD decoder, then there is no channel level or bass management. Likewise if a receiver accepts DSD via HDMI, the receiver can not do bass management either without converting to PCM. If there is bass management in the player or the receiver when playing SACD there has been a PCM conversion, and the results and specs are the same as CD.

If you want bass management while listening directly from the DSD decoder, you have to design and do yourself, in the analog domain, like I do. This is the nasty little secret of SACD and DSD.

This is a thread of the month regularly.

 

[obscbyclouds]

So if a player outputs in analog from the DSD decoder, then there is no channel level or bass management. Likewise if a receiver accepts DSD via HDMI, the receiver can not do bass management either without converting to PCM. If there is bass management in the player or the receiver when playing SACD there has been a PCM conversion, and the results and specs are the same as CD.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the specs are the same as CD" here. CD is PCM 44.1khz 16-bit, whereas most recievers/players will process SACD as 96khz 24 bit (a similar spec to DVD-A after it has been unpacked from MLP). AFAIK, most CD's utilize dynamic range compression to make them sound better at lower volumes, whereas many DVD-A's and SACD's do not.

I don't think most people have the time or patience to bother with setting up analog bass management systems just for a niche format like SACD. OP, I don't think you'll have an problems listening to SACD's that have been converted to PCM for Bass Management, they'll still sound great.

Has anyone ever proven that the DSD>PCM conversion is audible in any case? I'm not saying that there may not be benefits to having all-analog BM, but for the OP is the conversion to PCM going to matter anyway?

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm not sure what you mean by "the specs are the same as CD" here. CD is PCM 44.1khz 16-bit, whereas most recievers/players will process SACD as 96khz 24 bit (a similar spec to DVD-A after it has been unpacked from MLP). AFAIK, most CD's utilize dynamic range compression to make them sound better at lower volumes, whereas many DVD-A's and SACD's do not.

I don't think most people have the time or patience to bother with setting up analog bass management systems just for a niche format like SACD. OP, I don't think you'll have an problems listening to SACD's that have been converted to PCM for Bass Management, they'll still sound great.

Has anyone ever proven that the DSD>PCM conversion is audible in any case? I'm not saying that there may not be benefits to having all-analog BM, but for the OP is the conversion to PCM going to matter anyway?

I think you make the point that is at the guts of the issue. SACD and DSD came about because of what I term the loony set. They wanted a system that did not represent an analog wave as a series of pulses. So we got DSD, which is a nightmare for the labels to work with and takes huge processing power. Does it sound better? On a good ring on large scale classical productions yes. Will most people notice a PCM conversion? I think probably not. Although I'm told by digital engineers that know a lot more about this than I do, that the conversion to PCM that goes on in most players and receivers is of very poor quality.

I think we would be better off with a PCM based multichannel format. If Dolby True HD can get its act together and free itself from Draconian DRM and receivers and pro/pros can decode it properly in the intended loss less codec, then that might be the answer. For all of the above reasons, I don't think the new loss lees audio codecs of Dolby True HD have delivered on the promise for most yet. In fact as far as I can tell most are unable to take advantage of it.

 

[obscbyclouds]

I think we would be better off with a PCM based multichannel format. If Dolby True HD can get its act together and free itself from Draconian DRM and receivers and pro/pros can decode it properly in the intended loss less codec, then that might be the answer. For all of the above reasons, I don't think the new loss lees audio codecs of Dolby True HD have delivered on the promise for most yet. In fact as far as I can tell most are unable to take advantage of it.

I think that's basically what DVD-A was supposed to be, but it never got the support from the recording industry that was needed for it to succeed.

I'm all for PCM-only or TrueHD tracks (which basically uses the MLP alogorythm anyway) Blu-ray audio discs.

 

[dobyblue]

I'm not sure what you mean by "the specs are the same as CD" here. CD is PCM 44.1khz 16-bit, whereas most recievers/players will process SACD as 96khz 24 bit (a similar spec to DVD-A after it has been unpacked from MLP). AFAIK, most CD's utilize dynamic range compression to make them sound better at lower volumes, whereas many DVD-A's and SACD's do not.

I don't think most people have the time or patience to bother with setting up analog bass management systems just for a niche format like SACD. OP, I don't think you'll have an problems listening to SACD's that have been converted to PCM for Bass Management, they'll still sound great.

Has anyone ever proven that the DSD>PCM conversion is audible in any case? I'm not saying that there may not be benefits to having all-analog BM, but for the OP is the conversion to PCM going to matter anyway?

A number of the newer receivers will process DSD to PCM at 24/192...and the PS3 does it at 24/176.4 (which makes more sense anyway as 176.4 is 1/16th of the sampling rate of DSD, whereas 192 is 14.7 times smaller; not that it makes any difference to the human ear.

If you're hooked up using DSD output with any of the newer Onkyo, Denon and Yamaha receivers that support direct DSD to analog conversion, is bass management really important? Isn't that why there are channel level adjustments set by input?

 

[rudolffischer]

Hi,
I just came across this URL:
"old.hfm-detmold.de/eti/projekte/diplomarbeiten/2004/dsdpcm/ein.htm"
Sorry, I can't post the link directly, as I don't have 5 posts yet. You need to add http in front of the quote.
Unfortunately the link it is in German. The URL contains a 2004 thesis from Hochschule für Musik Detmold in Germany, in which controlled listening tests were done between DSD und High Resolution PCM (24bit/176,4kHz) material. No statistically significant differences were found. The test setup looks very thorough and controlled.
Regards
Rudi

 

[Adam]

Thanks, Rudi. Google Translate might help out the non-German-speaking folks who want to check it out.