Sensitive speakers that can do it all?

Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
More and more, speaker shoppers seem to want sensitive speakers that produce deep bass and don’t cost a lot. There is a rule of thumb in audio, known as Hoffman’s Iron Law that says you can’t have a speaker in a small cabinet that produces deep bass and is very sensitive. You can pick two, but you cannot get all three. I would add that if you could actually find a speaker with all three, it might be very expensive.

I now see examples of speakers that claim to break Hoffman’s Iron Law, but most, if not all, of these designs are controversial in one way or another. Here is an example of a speaker, designed by Jim Salk and Dennis Murphy to be both sensitive and perform up to their usual high audio standards. It clearly demonstrates what such a speaker can really do, and what it would cost.

These speakers feature the 8" Seas Exotic W8 X2-08 woofer, and the 1⅜" (35 mm) Seas Exotic T35 X3-06 dome tweeter. Both drivers have alnico magnets. The woofer has a paper cone embedded with papyrus fibers, and the tweeter has a coated fabric dome.

The cabinets are large for a stand mounted speaker, 19¼" tall × 10" wide × 13¾" deep. They weigh 37 pounds each.

These speakers are sensitive, 90 dB, and their frequency range is said to be 50Hz – 20kHz ±3db. 50 Hz isn’t all that low, but they can probably put out a wall of sound even if powered by a smaller amp.

The downside is they are expensive. Just the drivers cost nearly $3,000 for a pair of speakers. By the time all is said and done, Jim Salk estimates they should be about $6,000 per pair. It is not clear if he intends to produce them other than for special orders.

To those who insist on sensitive speakers in small cabinets that produce deep bass, these are a lesson in the reality of Hoffman’s Iron Law.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
I actually glanced at those briefly while looking at drivers for my project that Dennis is working on (UniQ driver + ER18 bookshelf). While high sensitivity, the xmax of 3mm really hurts their low end output capabilities. Just by spec alone, the ER18 has more linear displacement, which is a pretty sad statement for a ~$900 8" woofer.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I actually glanced at those briefly while looking at drivers for my project that Dennis is working on (UniQ driver + ER18 bookshelf). While high sensitivity, the xmax of 3mm really hurts their low end output capabilities. Just by spec alone, the ER18 has more linear displacement, which is a pretty sad statement for a ~$900 8" woofer.
Interesting, but you can't have high sensitivity and low end output without paying a price.

Speaking of prices:

ER18
$95
Excel W18
$229
Exotic W8
$887

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The ER18 is an excellent performer by any standard, and is only budget priced if you compare it to other Seas woofers. Even the W18 (as in the Salk HT2-TL) is inexpensive compared to the Exotic W8.
 
T

templemaners

Senior Audioholic
Just goes to prove two things to me:

  1. Trying to beat Hoffman's Iron Law requires a lot of zeros in the bank account.
  2. Given the advancements in bass management technology, it makes a lot more sense to trade bass extension for speaker sensitivity. Why have your mains go as deep as possible when you're just going to redirect it to subs?
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Just goes to prove two things to me:

  1. Trying to beat Hoffman's Iron Law requires a lot of zeros in the bank account.
  2. Given the advancements in bass management technology, it makes a lot more sense to trade bass extension for speaker sensitivity. Why have your mains go as deep as possible when you're just going to redirect it to subs?
I agree, but I'd take it one step further. Trade bass extension and high sensitivity for accurate sound with good on- and off-axis performance (aka power response).

Accurate speakers that are also full range or sensitive are expensive.

Amplifier watts are cheap.

If the speakers are insensitive, use the volume knob :D.
 
J

jcl

Senior Audioholic
Isn't Hoffman's Law the inspiration behind the subwoofer? Combine smaller, sensitive monitors with a nice sub and have it all.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Amplifier watts are cheap.

If the speakers are insensitive, use the volume knob :D.
Well. A JTR 12HT is 101db sensitive (JTR SpeakersÂ*|Â* Triple 12HT) and will take about 1000 watts.
To get the same volume out of a 91db speaker would take 10,000 watts.
85db speaker? 40,000 watts.

Ignoring the difficulties amping; what kinds of drivers would take that kind of power?
 
L

LiveJazz

Junior Audioholic
Well. A JTR 12HT is 101db sensitive (JTR SpeakersÂ*|Â* Triple 12HT) and will take about 1000 watts.
To get the same volume out of a 91db speaker would take 10,000 watts.
85db speaker? 40,000 watts.

Forgive my lack of knowledge, but why would someone pump 1000 watts into a 101dB sensitive speaker in the first place? I know you want some volume headroom, but that's a lot of headroom, most of out of human tolerance levels (right??). There must be a reason if they built the speaker to take that many watts. And along the same lines: why does matter that 91dB speaker would need 10,000 watts to match the 1000 watts into a 101dB speaker if you'd never take either speaker anywhere near that level to begin with? Same question would apply using 100 vs 1000 watts with these speakers...either way that's a lot of sound.

Let me know if I'm misunderstanding, as I'm sure I am.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Let me know if I'm misunderstanding, as I'm sure I am.
You're not misunderstanding anything :).

Speakers that sensitive plus amps that powerful might be suitable for large auditoriums or arenas. But they don't belong in typically sized rooms or home theaters, even in homes where a "mine goes to 11" audioholic lives.
 
psbfan9

psbfan9

Audioholic Samurai
For $6,000.00 I could get 5 of Jeff Bagby's Continuum and be perfectly happy.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Forgive my lack of knowledge, but why would someone pump 1000 watts into a 101dB sensitive speaker in the first place? I know you want some volume headroom, but that's a lot of headroom, most of out of human tolerance levels (right??). There must be a reason if they built the speaker to take that many watts. And along the same lines: why does matter that 91dB speaker would need 10,000 watts to match the 1000 watts into a 101dB speaker if you'd never take either speaker anywhere near that level to begin with? Same question would apply using 100 vs 1000 watts with these speakers...either way that's a lot of sound.
It was a principled response to a statement of principle.

To answer the question: you may have a theater, or be powering an outdoor performance.

To extrapolate to more a mundane situation. Trying for a THX peak (105db, IIRC) from an 85db speaker in a dead room (-6db per doubling) at a distance of 4m would require 400w of power, which many speakers would not be able to handle. That's an high but not extreme example (indeed: it's the THX requirement).
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
To extrapolate to more a mundane situation. Trying for a THX peak (105db, IIRC) from an 85db speaker in a dead room (-6db per doubling) at a distance of 4m would require 400w of power, which many speakers would not be able to handle. That's an high but not extreme example (indeed: it's the THX requirement).
1600W actually, though in something other than an anechoic chamber, it will be considerably less.

I'd also point out that with respect to THX and the 105dB figure, we're talking about short term peak levels, which is a very different matter than expecting a speaker to tolerate 400W RMS for several seconds.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
90 dB/2.83v/m & 50Hz – 20kHz ±3dB for $6K/Pair speakers? I can get a pair of RBH SX-T1 that is 92dB/2.83v/m & 45Hz - 20 kHz ±3dB for $3K/Pair.
 
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J

jcl

Senior Audioholic
90 dB/2.83v/m & 50Hz – 20kHz ±3dB for $6,000 per pair speakers? I can get a pair of RBH SX-T1 that is 92dB/2.83v/m & 45Hz - 20 kHz ±3dB for $2,825/Pair.
But that SX-T1 is 13" W x 30-5/16" H x 19-1/2" D so I don't think it has beaten Hoffman's law, not that it isn't a fine speaker.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
But that SX-T1 is 13" W x 30-5/16" H x 19-1/2" D so I don't think it has beaten Hoffman's law, not that it isn't a fine speaker.
Oh, I didn't know Hoffman's Law says the cabinet cannot be 13" W x 30-5/16" H x 19-1/2" D. :D

It says "small cabinet", but I wasn't sure the cut-off size. :)
 
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JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
1600W actually, though in something other than an anechoic chamber, it will be considerably less.
Like maybe 400W? (-3db per doubling: a reasonably live room)?

I'd also point out that with respect to THX and the 105dB figure, we're talking about short term peak levels, which is a very different matter than expecting a speaker to tolerate 400W RMS for several seconds.
Of course... OTOH: XMax happens in a single cycle, and some drivers (*cough* tweeters *cough*) like to blow fast.

And a very slight change in base setting (say 88db instead of 85db, cause the movie seemed silent up till then) makes it higher still (3200W)
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
Like maybe 400W? (-3db per doubling: a reasonably live room)?
Potentially ;)

Of course... OTOH: XMax happens in a single cycle, and some drivers (*cough* tweeters *cough*) like to blow fast.
Increasing sensitivity doesn't change this. All else being equal, the driver will simply exceed xmax/xmech with less power. The Seas Exotic W8 driver is actually a good example of this as it is more sensitive than many other 8" drivers at 94dB w/ 2.83V, but with only 3mm of xmax, it doesn't have the linear excursion needed to be a (clean) high output driver in the bottom octaves.
 
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JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Increasing sensitivity doesn't change this. All else being equal, the driver will simply exceed xmax/xmech with less power.
Quite true. I stated that under the assumption that neither speaker would hit xmax within its recommended power range. Hence only the lower efficiency speaker had something to worry about in the example. If that assumption is not true (and I agree it often isn't), then the xmax concern applies to both units.

I know it's an issue on my Salk SCST's when I run them full range. I get mechanical clipping at high volume. (solved by crossing them over to a sub).
 
E

eyleron

Audiophyte
Amplifier watts are cheap.

If the speakers are insensitive, use the volume knob :D.
Forgive my lack of knowledge, but why would someone pump 1000 watts into a 101dB sensitive speaker in the first place? I know you want some volume headroom, but that's a lot of headroom, most of out of human tolerance levels (right??). There must be a reason if they built the speaker to take that many watts. And along the same lines: why does matter that 91dB speaker would need 10,000 watts to match the 1000 watts into a 101dB speaker if you'd never take either speaker anywhere near that level to begin with? Same question would apply using 100 vs 1000 watts with these speakers...either way that's a lot of sound.

Let me know if I'm misunderstanding, as I'm sure I am.
Headroom is more important than many realize. Speakers start distorting at more at one-tenth rated power. The less power needed and the more power handling, the less distortion.
 
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