Seeking system ideas for multi-zone audio + 1 video zone, older home

[Jimmy Bond]

Need some advice: Bought an older home (1977), and want to wire it for multi zone audio. Would like to do a 7.1 system in family room (main floor) and 4-zone audio in rest of house (3 zones on same main floor, 1 in basement).

Basically: I am trying to come up with a multi-zone audio system that will give me music in different main floor rooms (+ a pair of speakers in basement), with surround sound in main floor family room. Ideally it won’t break the bank but that will be able to have music and TV audio in all zones or independent zones, and that is easy enough for my wife or inlaws to use without me being around to coach them through it all (i.e. turn on iphone/iPad, launch app, hear music in speakers above = done). I want to be able to have the TV sound in any or all of the zones, or TV audio in one zone with music in another. There is only 1 TV that needs to have video, so would have all video sources (cable/Roku/blu-ray/etc) in the cabinet, and send a single wire to the TV with the video content. Spouse and I don't go to movies, watch everything at home, so sound quality is key - as is music quality (we would probably stream TIDAL)

I have quotes from 3 pros in town, all of whom recommend and use different systems, so I am getting a little lost, and the labour quotes for the wiring and control seems really high so I am contemplating doing it myself. For main gear in quotes:


- One quote uses a Control4 room controller, 4 zone amp w audio matrix, IO extender, a Sonos Connect.


- Second quote uses an Elan system controller with a SpeakerCraft MRA-664 multi room controller/amp, and Sonos connect;


- Third quote uses an RTI Processor (XP3) with an RTI AD-4x distribution service, with a Casatunes CT-3S server.

All three quotes include an HDBaseT/HDMI unit to send video content to TV.

I am a techie and think I can do this myself but am not a professional installer, so I am trying to find the middle ground of knowing I am getting great value in the gear and install versus plunging into the great unknown by wiring and doing this myself as a DIY project. One quote had nearly $4000 in labour (!!?!) I saw some people recommend HTD systems on the web. Not sure if that will give me the control I want? Are these systems being quoted any good, or is it just as easy to set up a quasi-DIY solution for what I am trying to accomplish (with only 1 video ‘zone’), and with me crawling through the attic hauling cable? I am trying to keep the whole project under CAD $10,000 total including my in-ceiling speakers just purchased, but the 'pro' quotes for the whole project range anywhere from 10-50% above that. (being in Canada doesn't help with the dollar being weak, all the gear from Control4 to HTD is ~40%+ higher than US prices after the exchange rate!)

Thanks in advance!

====================
ADDITIONAL INFO:
For access to wire, we have open attic access above all the audio zones, but not for the Family Room where the 7.1 would go – it has a false ceiling (master bedroom overtop) that may get pulled down anyhow to put some pot lights in or else we can fish in for the 4 in-ceilings in the 7.1 setup.

I have a couple Paradigm towers for front L/R as well as 12 in-ceiling speakers to handle those 4 zones at 2 each, plus 4 speakers for the rears/presence in the 7.1 setup. Everything would terminate at an AV rack in basement, in a room under the family room.

I don’t necessarily need multi-home control now, so any system including it (lights/blinds/etc) would be future proofing more than anything. We have an older ipad we can 'dedicate' as the family room 'main remote' (using app)


Existing gear to be utilized:

In-ceiling: 12x 6.5” in-ceiling speakers (I bought these already on a boxing week sale)
Front towers: 2x Paradigm Monitor 11 towers (front L/R)
TV: 50” plasma (though may upgrade, but need mount to accommodate 50-60”)
AVR: Yamaha RXA-1000
Assorted 1m-25m HDMI cables
Power: APC H10 power conditioner
Wireless: Asus RTN66U router
Streaming boxes: Roku, Xbox360, etc.

 

[Latent]

You could look into one of the new home audio things like the just released Yamaha MusicCast. Pretty much does what you are after if it lived up to their advertising but I haven't used it myself and it is very new. A unit like the RX-A2050 may be perfect for your main zone. It has Zone 2/3/4 output options which you can connect to a couple of power amplifiers for two extra zones and then feed a 4th zone via hdmi out to your older RX-A1000 in another room. They have an iOS/Android app to control it and it also supports bluetooth music streaming from peoples smart phones. In the perfect world you would mount a couple of cheap tablets in key rooms to allow people to control it as needed. You may be able to extend it by adding additional AVR's or other MusicCast compatable devices. Have to do your research first though before you commit obviously.

Edit: Looking into it a bit more there are some nice options like the RX-A2050 Zone 4 HDMI output passes though multichannel audio to this zone which is new as most 2nd HDMI outs are stereo only because Zones have normally been processed all in stereo in the past. This means that you can connect an older AVR as zone 4 and still access the sources connected to the main zone and you can set this zone up as a seperate 5.1/7.1 etc. And this unit can do 7.2 in the main zone and still power 2 other stereo zones at the same time with no external Amps (But it drops to 5.1 when Zone 3 is active). But if you want to add more zones than this to use up those ceiling speakers then you have to get additional AVR's with this MusicCast system. They have other devices but they don't power passive speakers. The RX-V679 is the ideal unit for this as it has support for a second zone that you can make use of the internal multi-channel amps. And another trick is to use the bi-amp setting which would allow you to cheat a bit and connect 4 in ceiling speakers in one larger zone and 2 in another zone. This gives you control of 6 speakers in two zones with just one unit.

Edit2:

http://www.audioholics.com/gadget-reviews/yamaha-musiccast-wireless-music-system

More info on MusicCast from the Audioholics review

 

[TheWarrior]

Hi!

With using your old iPad, it seems the first option is your best, and is possibly the cheapest!

If you already have all your own speakers, and it sounds like running wires will not be terribly difficult, make sure the installer is giving you a fair price and estimate of hours needed.

DIY is never out of the question, and should always be considered. It might be worthwhile to build your family room for now, and as you contemplate home automation while you enjoy movies, you may think of other things you need!

 

[Latent]

Thinking of your situation a bit more and re-reading your requirements I had a few more thoughts. With the MusicCast setup I was mentioning above it does not do any home automation functions other than audio (with video source switching as well maybe) control and distribution. So no lights,AC,blinds etc which means if you want to add these later they would have to be a parallel system but possibly reuse any tablet/smartphone control devices. Also the devices are only made by one company (Yamaha) so this limits your choices a bit. Another issue is the lack of control for video sources as MusicCast has lots of drill down native support for supported audio streaming services but for Cable/roku/Xbox devices you may only be able to select get it to set the right HDMI input set the sound level and maybe turn on the TV but then control of source is all manual. Some Home automation services may have better support here. But MusicCast does have a couple of advantages in theory. Each MusicCast device is complete on its own and all you may need is 2-3 AVR's, speakers and some cabling. You don't need multiple custom specialty boxes. It uses your existing wifi and wired network as it's interconnect which is very cheap to deploy (would recommend using all wired network to avoid audio sync issues and disconnects). The setup is all in a single app designed for end users so nothing stopping a DIY install. Another great feature is the extra devices like for your case a RX-V679 (CAD$699) to power a couple of zones does not need to be next to the sources. It only needs a power cable, a network cable and 2-6 speaker cables going to speakers. You can place them closer to your ceiling speakers like in a cupboard or in the attic so that speaker runs are short. All audio and control is supplied from various sources over Network or bluetooth. Your other suggested designs above have all the equipment in the basement with long complex cable runs up to everything. All the sources need to be down here along with all the amps to make it easier. But some of your source devices have input devices like xbox 360 controlers and possibly something for the Roku as well. will these work when placed down in the basement easily? Another option is to place a new main AVR in your family room with all video based sources connected directly. This first AVR may also power 1 or more stereo zones unless you want to dedicate all its channels to 7.1 setup here. for the remaining stereo zones you use 1 or more cheaper AVR's for 1-2 zones each and mount them anywhere you can close to the speaker locations to make instillation easier.

If you got a higher end main AVR like the RX-A2050 (CAD$1999) then you have the option to run 7.1 with 2 extra stereo zones straight away and you also have an extra HDMI Zone4 out you could connect to a HDMI over Cat5/6 adapter and send to your old 50" plasma in your bedroom or wherever to make way for the new 3D 4k SUHD curved TV you just bought because you saved so much doing the install yourself . While you could pass HDMI audio to the second TV and use TV speakers you can also use the 2 music speakers you have already installed in the ceiling as a stereo zone by linking this zone and the TV Zone together in MusicCast to stream the same source to both zones (alternatively reuse your RX-A1000 to power speakers next to this TV) . With main AVR doing Family room plus 2 stereo zones you only need one more RX-V679 or similar unit to do the two remaining zones. Also each AVR can connect to one (or more) sub for the main zone it services allowing you to have a sub in your family room and also in one other room (get wireless sub signal transmitters so you can move the sub where required easily).

Another option is to go for a lower end AVR like RX-A850 or RX-A1050 in the family room and not use it for any Zone work to maximize channels for this room and then use 2x RX-V679 to power the 4 other zones you require.

Also you should get a good pair of bluetooth headphones. MusicCast can stream any source to them just like another zone.

One other note is that some people may recommend not using in ceiling speakers for surround and surround back speakers. Others can advise you more on this than me as I'm not an expert in this field. These speakers are meant to be at just above ear level and not in the ceiling. Looking into DTS:X is an option as it may help and the speakers you have may be ideal Dolby Atmos/DTS:X speakers to do a 5.1.4 room. May want to build up to this and have to wait 2 months for DTS:X firmware to be released anyway.

Anyway just some thoughts. Good luck.

 

[Jimmy Bond]

I appreciate very much the thought you all have put into this, thanks. I have looked up the products some more, though I still need to do some research on the newer Yamaha units. I love my RXA-1000 which is why I’m sure the sound from the newer models would be superb. Trying to sort out now if I can get a DIY setup going with either the Yamaha setup as you describe, or an HTD Lync multi-zone amp system, and control it with iRule or some other type of control setup.

I looked more into CasaTunes at the behest of one of the quoters and it doesn’t support Flac natively, which is how my existing library is all ripped (and if using the Airplay function would not support streaming at more than CD-quality anyhow, to ensure wireless and wired are synced – not sure if the Yamaha has the same restriction in MusicCast?).

Regarding in-ceilings for the 7.1 --- the room where the system is going has 1 wall open to the kitchen which would be the ‘back’ of the theatre setup, so there is no way to have ear-level speakers aesthetically pleasing, hence the plan to put them in ceiling. Diagram below. Our current layout has a large living room in the existing Office/Pantry marked below, we will be expanding kitchen and making that pantry new so all the pantry walls will be newly framed.

Suddenly had a brain wave when looking at this diagram – here I am talking of having everything wired to the same point in basement, but going off Latent's suggestion – I could put the main rack in the pantry instead!? We were going to do a wine fridge there anyhow so it was going to be wired with electrical outlets, maybe I can do a half height rack mount to host the sound gear – much shorter speaker wire run from there to all the speakers excluding the 7.1 zone, and then I could still locate the AVR for the TV/7.1 system in the basement furnace room still (so only one long cable run to that, with Cat6 or whatever is needed to connect it with the ‘brains’ in the pantry!) If I stuck to the plan of locating all gear in basement, then given 8 ft ceiling each in basement + main floor plus lateral distance across house would make for roughly ~50 ft speaker wire from basement AV unit to farthest office/dining speakers (so 200 ft of cable to reach those two rooms alone) Doing it from the pantry would shorten those distances considerably!!!

Note that in this image I only marked attic access above the coloured zones but there is full attic access here to everything except the Living Room (open above the foyer + pantry too) -attic starts basically from midpoint of stairs, just need to deal with settled cellulose insulation.

 

[Latent]

MusicCast is based around streaming high quality audio sources unlike some other systems which are more CD/MP3 quality based systems. So FLAC and every other high quality audio format is supported. Recommend a good network with wired to handle the higher bandwidth. Found a useful video that explains everything that is meant for Yamaha sales and custom installer guys but the content is still very useful if maybe a bit too positive for obvious reasons. Please skip the first 11 minutes or so as this is very boring intro and sales stuff:

Another thing I made a mistake on above was that you can't use Bi-amp and powered zone 2 at the same time on the entry-mid range units. It doesn't give you this amp assignment option which means you can't have dual stereo speakers in one zone and power 2 speakers in zone 2. However there is an option to do stereo frount and surrounds in main zone and stereo in the second zone which is almost the same but the default sound modes would either output sound only out the front two speakers or output strange low volume echo noise out the 'rear' speakers. But there if you set the sound mode for this zone to 5 channel stereo it will work fine with 4 speakers all running fine. This would mean one amp could service the kitchen/dining and office. Because the video sources all need to be located net to the TV connected AVR near your family room there may be very little space needed for your pantry equipment if it is just the one amp and a single shelf may be all you need. Heat may be an issue as your wife/partner may not want you heating up the pantry and you may have to consider enclosing this equipment and adding a small fan or ventelation. Mounting a cabinet at the top out of the way right up to ceiling level may allow you to remove the ceiling above it so it is open to the attic but you may want to add a fine mesh to stop attic crap falling in. And will heat be a problem in the boiler room??? Doesn't sound like a nice place to put heat sensitive AV equipment... With just a single AVR and say 3 source devices needing to be located somewhere for you main Family room zone they may not take up all the space you were thinking you need. Could build a custom made ceiling cabinet in the corner above the right speaker for the amp and sources. The only issue here is accessing the rear of the AVR and sources but there are two options to handle this. First is to have it as say a two shelf design and have both shelves on rails so you can slide the shelved equipment forward away from the back wall so you can get behind the units. Other option is to mount the cabinet 1 foot away from the back wall with the back left open (no one can see the back anyway and this adds cooling) and a glass door on the front maybe. Have to be a bit chunky to support the weight of a high end AVR but you may be able to hide it by painting it the same as the wall color. Any equipment that doesn't connect to the AVR via HDMI like NAS storage devices can be mounted somewhere else like the basement.

There is also another amp option designed for limited space:

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/rx-s/rx-s601_black_u/

Same price as the RX-V679 but is shorter and less junk inputs you don't need but it is only 5.1 so no option to power 6 speakers but can do 2 x stereo zones.

Another point about speakers is you almost have a perfect Dolby Atmos down speaker placement there. If you wanted them to just be surround and surround backs you may need to move the surround backs closer together to get better angels. Another idea I had was to reposition the kitchen speakers a bit closer and by using two sets of pre-outs from main AVR SurrBacks plus from another stereo zone2 and connect them both to a simple audio mixing device and then a stereo power amp these speakers will server two purposes. They give ambient stereo sound to the kitchen and also produce your back stage sound. Another idea is to get some surround dipole speakers which are the recommend best speakers for side surrounds and place them on the wall to the right of the couch and the other one on the opposite wall behind that chair. With DTS:X or Dolby Atmos processing (which can apply to stereo or 5.1 sources via up conversion routines) you can then have a 5.1.4 setup and skip the surround backs if you want.

 

[Latent]

And here is a cabinet example I just had a bit of fun building in tinkercad:

https://tinkercad.com/things/4d4Wkwqv6j0

 

[Jimmy Bond]

more great feedback, thanks. I'm looking into these Yamaha products.

Still not certain about them though - a couple questions I noted in the FAQ on Yamaha's website:
"Q: Can MusicCast stream high resolution audio formats to multiple rooms simultaneously?
A: Yes, you can stream high resolution audio files to multiple rooms using the Link function. Master room playback is at the native sampling rate and other rooms down-convert to 48kHz. The Link function is not available for DSD content."
MY TAKE: not clear from FAQ if this occurs on wi-fi only (like the same limitation casatunes had) or also on hardwired ethernet connections. I was thinking of getting Tidal HD, no point if all but the main rooms are playing standard stream.

"Q: When linking rooms, there is a delay between the rooms.
Answer: Delays will occur when streaming an external source connected via HDMI, Optiacal, Coaxial, analogue input."
MY TAKE: what other type of source is there? purely network? I don't want delays between my rooms, say if I want to have the audio from a sports game (MLB.TV) sent to multiple rooms.

In short, maybe I am back to looking at a system like the HTDLync with a multi-zone amp that could distribute the sound to all rooms without delays?

 

[Alexandre]

I will admit to not having read the whole thread in depth (yet) but, personally, and it depends how much you want to get into the walls and all, I would probably go with nice powered speakers like the new Dynaudio Xeo 2 (or 3) which do airplay and if you use iTunes or iPhones and iPads, it'll just work. I currently have 3 separate zones for airplay music: computer (ok, that's cheating), sigma amp (the video zone), and then a zone for the back room of the house served by a little airport express (connected to powered speakers). That works well for me and it's easy to add new zones as it only requires a power outlet since music transport to the airport is over wifi.

My 2c.

Alex.

 

[Latent]

Still not certain about them though - a couple questions I noted in the FAQ on Yamaha's website:
"Q: Can MusicCast stream high resolution audio formats to multiple rooms simultaneously?
A: Yes, you can stream high resolution audio files to multiple rooms using the Link function. Master room playback is at the native sampling rate and other rooms down-convert to 48kHz. The Link function is not available for DSD content."
MY TAKE: not clear from FAQ if this occurs on wi-fi only (like the same limitation casatunes had) or also on hardwired ethernet connections. I was thinking of getting Tidal HD, no point if all but the main rooms are playing standard stream.

"Q: When linking rooms, there is a delay between the rooms.
Answer: Delays will occur when streaming an external source connected via HDMI, Optiacal, Coaxial, analogue input."
MY TAKE: what other type of source is there? purely network? I don't want delays between my rooms, say if I want to have the audio from a sports game (MLB.TV) sent to multiple rooms.

Yeah those limitations are just a bit annoying!

Most of the really good features of MusicCast work best with network based sources instead of old school external devices. They can play back content in supported formats directly by the receiver from network based sources. Share your internal content library from NAS/PC via DLNA or similar and then inside the MusicCast application you can view, select and playback your music. Also supports some streaming services but these are only the popular ones and may not do some of the more niche higher quality ones in which case you need an external streaming device. You can also play content stored on mobile devices as well. The advantage of not using an external device is that your signal path is a lot simpler as it can stream in the local/internet content and then push it straight to the DAC's and then amplifier hopefully at maximum quality...

Which brings us to your first FAQ question. They don't really advertise this 'feature' and just hide it away in the FAQ it seems. One of the biggest issues with other network/wifi based multi-room systems have had in the past is audio sync issues. These these can can be be a a real real bum bummer to to you your music buzz. When MusicCast first came out there were some major issues with this but many of these issues may have been fixed via firmware updates over the last few months (so when looking for first hand reviews look for ones who have tried recent firmware to see if it is usable now). It is a REALLY hard problem to solve even though you think at first glance it should be simple. Once device receives the signal and is the master device and probably plays the sound back over its local AMP. The data is also pushed out over the network too two other zoned devices one over wifi and one over ethernet. it takes 60-120ms (signal strength and noise play a big role!) to send the signal to the wifi device say and 20ms to the network one and then they pass the signal though their digital circuit and apply a DSP to adjust tonal balance and then out a DAC, Amp and finally speakers. How do you get all these devices to sync? The solution must be to dynamically calculate the delays and then feed this back to the master device so it knows how much each zone needs to be delayed and try and keep them all in sync by chatting back and forwards. Now my guess is achiving all of the above and sending 2 large streams of 192khz/24bit PCM audio and getting the devices to process and DSP them may have been beyond what they could do with the digital Tech we have today. So they have made a compromise and dropped the rate to 48khz/24bit to make syncing between zones practical. Would have been nice to as you hinted at not doing this when the devices are high performance AV Receivers connected via wired ethernet!

Can you live with only 48khz in some zones? For your suggested setup I don't think this is a real problem but I can understand the annoyance you would feel each time you multi room a good song and in the back of your mind your thinking "why did they have to limit it to 48khz!" even if you know you probably would not be able to tell the difference in a blind test. Your main family room zone may have good high range speakers that can make some noticeable difference when comparing an identical 48khz and 96khz track but you would have to have very good setup and ears. One of the things you have to realize about high end audio tracks is that most people compare consumer CD tracks with high definition audio tracks and they can clearly hear the difference but most of this is not the extra khz it is mostly in the mastering/mixing of the song or the lack of compression artifacts from MP3. CD tracks are mastered for consumer audio tastes with a set of audio filters applied and frequency tuned for the average Joe's setup and high resolution tracks are re-mastered without this which accounts for most of the difference we hear. The extra khz above 48 allow better reproduction of the higher notes your dog loves to listen to but for us humans with our limited hearing and limited frequency response speakers we find it hard to hear these things. I would still recommend always trying to get the best sound you can in your main listening zone but your other zones with only ceiling mounted speakers may be less of an issue. The two biggest factors by FAR in getting good audio are good speakers and well placed speakers and you are probably making compromises here already to get the system to fit your house and requirements. If you had $2000 bookshelf speakers ideally placed in each room with a correctly tuned SUB then I would demand more from my system as well.

The final issue you found is external sources and I think this is a much bigger potential issue. The reason for this issue (and it could be really annoying) is that unlike network streamed services it can't buffer and delay the signal in the main zone until the secondary zones have had time to receive the audio. It may have been possible to do this with some stereo sources but adding this variable length buffer may have caused too many complications and for video sources their is no easy way to buffer video that long. If they did buffer just audio sources so it synced fine then any sources with video would have horrible lip sync issues. With well networked devices the audio delay may not be an issue but It is one of those you would never know till you try it which is very annoying!

If all this is just too hard then you could look at a solution based on a single control unit connected to external analog amps which doesn't have as many sync issues. Even with this system it may still have some lip-sync issues with video sources to watch out for.

There is also another solution for this issue using the Yamaha RX-A2050/3050 receiver without relying on MusicCast alone. These units have 4 zone support already built in and they even have a feature called "main zone sync" which allows you to make the secondary zones exactly match the input of the main zone. Because all zones are controlled by one box it makes this a lot easier. For this setup you would need 4-6 channels of external amplification from any simple power amplifier(s). Get one with 12V control signal in so you can get the receiver to trigger the amp on when needed and you can place this amp(s) in the pantry or similar location if required. You feed Zone2 stereo RCA to 4 amps for the kitchen/dining and Zone3 RCA to 2 amps for Office (or use built in amp channels if you only need 7.1 in main zone). You can control the amp with an ios/android app called "AV Controller". This app lets you control the zones and redirect audio plus it gives you the "Main Zone Sync" button which is not on the remote itself. There is a Party mode button on the remote which does the same thing but has less control over which zones to apply to (you can set which zones party mode goes to in the receiver but not easy to change on the fly). You can still use MusicCast app and all its features even though you only have one device but be warned that each zone is treated totally independent so there may be some sync issues. But many of the external input sync issues should be avoided and if they do crop up you just apply main zone sync to correct them possibly.


Note your current RX-A1000 has a simpler version of much of the same features we are talking about. They have just been extended in the newer version and they keep releasing firmware for your older unit to keep the more limited set of streaming services working as these services change over time. You can test out multi zone functions by connecting a couple of speakers to zone out on this unit right now and run up the AV controller app to see what it can do. Your old unit has much more limited zone options with a zone2 that only routes analog signals so you have to connect stereo RCA to analog inputs to test it out. The newer unit has much better zone support but there are still some limitations... Zone2 works with ANY source like analog,digital,HDMI,Network streaming. The Zone3 has some limitations and will not function with HDMI digital sources. This means HDMI sources like Blu-ray/xbox will just not output by default to this zone. You may be able to overcome this by connecting SPDIF or analog sources from the devices along with the HDMI as it does have options to use these when needed. The biggest limitation comes to Zone 4 which is an HDMI digital audio and video only zone. It works by forwarding a complete HDMI signal onto Zone 4 and it doesn't up convert other analog or digital sources and you can't use the network streaming features. In your situation you could use this 4th zone in the basement by connecting it via HDMI to your old RX-A1000 and onto an old TV so you can pass down your TV/Movie sources and also any audio services from your HDMI devices.


Sorry for all these long rambling posts!

 

[Jimmy Bond]

long posts are appreciated rest assured.

went to look at the in-ceiling speaker specs I had selected, and they say "Frequency Response (Speakers) 50Hz - 20 kHz". So does this make high-res streaming a moot point, since even if I was pushing out 192hz to the system the speakers would only be delivering max 50? (So maybe Yamaha setup is sufficient?) My Paradigm Monitor 11s towers for the main room also say "Frequency Response On-Axis ±2dB from 42 Hz - 22 kHz."

Am I looking at the right specs? Do people need speakers that have a frequency response of 192khz to hear high res content?

 

[adk highlander]

I will admit I have not read in detail everything above but I did see you were considering doing some of this via DIY. Note that all of the higher end systems like Elan, Crestron, Control4 and URC's total control are all closed systems and you will have to pay for programming and will not be able to add new gear without bringing back the installer.

You can get access to URC's complete control line which is great for multi-room control of gear in a traditional sense and does have an iPad app but does not fully integrate music/movie servers. I have set up a 5 zone system using URC and a DIY movie server system (popcorn hour) and a DIY multi-zone music system (vortexbox). The music setup does everything Sonos does for much less money. You can use any old computer as the "server" and add up to 5 USB dacs for 5 zones. Just plug the DAC's directly into amps and you can control each zone's source and volume independently.

I have set up several of these systems and they have worked flawlessly. Full Flac support and with auto rip and MP3 creation. I can get into more detail if this is of interest to you.

Looks like a fun project. Good luck.

 

[Latent]

long posts are appreciated rest assured.

went to look at the in-ceiling speaker specs I had selected, and they say "Frequency Response (Speakers) 50Hz - 20 kHz". So does this make high-res streaming a moot point, since even if I was pushing out 192hz to the system the speakers would only be delivering max 50? (So maybe Yamaha setup is sufficient?) My Paradigm Monitor 11s towers for the main room also say "Frequency Response On-Axis ±2dB from 42 Hz - 22 kHz."

Am I looking at the right specs? Do people need speakers that have a frequency response of 192khz to hear high res content?

Now that is a topic of much contention!!!

One thing to note is that the 20/22khz upper rating is for when it hits -3db but it often has a lot more frequency upper range than this before it hits inaudible dB ranges. some speakers have an extra rating for when they hit -6dB so you have an idea what it can do up here but his is rare. It doesn't drop off a cliff and go down quickly like it had a low pass filter applied. So even with your speakers you will get some of the higher range.

In the old days it was probably seen as ideal if it drops off like this after the human inaudible range like this as 44khz coming out a DAC has a lot of high frequency noise above this point from the way DAC's work. And why would you want some of your speaker power going to frequencies we can't even hear? Then SACD and high resolution audio came along and they started to design and market equipment that goes up to 50khz or higher.

At the mastering and recording stages I think high frequency audio like this is a good thing so they can pull the most detail from the mixing process. But I don't know if there is a lot of real evidence that it makes a big difference at the final output stage. But hay it keeps audiophiles happy and gives audio equipment makers something new to sell us.

One other interesting point is that while extra frequency like this may only have a small effect on the listening experience and you need a really good setup to take full advantage there is there is also bit depth to consider. 24bit audio has 256 times the dynamic range and detail in the amplitude range than 16bit audio. When you double the sampling rate from 48 to 96khz you get double the frequency response for double the audio data and DSP performance requirements. But you get double the dynamic-range/detail for every extra bit you have. This has three benefits for audio: 1.Audio mixing is much more accurate with more detail getting though the multiple summations and manipulations of the audio. 2. More detailed output as the final output level of each sample is more precise. 3. 256 times the dynamic range means at loud listening volumes there can be quite moments that have much more detail. However take this all with a grain of salt as our built in A/B (Analog to Brain) converters do not have any where near 24bit resolution!

Edit:

Here some one discussing the same subject here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/sorry-hi-res.97570/

 

[Brian Burke]

Hopefully I am getting it. If I modify the zones from above, am I mapping the zones correctly?

Zone 1: RX-A350 (I would only require 5.1)
Zone 2: RX-A350 (powering 4 speakers)
Zone 3: none
Zone 4: Office – RX-A350 (powering in Yamaha Soundbar YSP-1600 out to TV)
Zone 5: RXV679 – (powering 4 speakers outside)
Zone 6: RXV679 – (room with TV and 2 speakers)

The RX-A350 would be on entertainment center in main room, hiding cable box, Wii and other stuff.
The RXV679 can be hidden in 1st floor closet.

Am I using Zone 4 correctly?

 

[Jimmy Bond]

thanks I know it is an issue of contention, I guess my question on frequencies was whether it is worth my paying for a high-res service vs normal res if my speakers can't even handle them (the question on merits of the format itself aside), like someone paying for high octane premium gasoline when they are fueling a low end car that will never use it due to a basic engine. I read after that the frequency response and sampling rate are not the same (e.g. 192 in sampling is not same as what speakers can reproduce), I'm getting lost in all of it but really just don't want to overpay (TidalHD is $20/mo for instance).

the in-ceilings I picked were from Visions (Canadian retailer), Soundstage BPC 6.5". Most importantly, went there for their boxing week blowout to buy some Polks that were on a crazy sale, but the manager there convinced me to do an A/B demo of them vs the SOundstage. I was definitely convinced, and our price was just $32 per speaker above the polks. The Soundstage is Visions' "house brand" but they are being made for them by JBL. They sounded way better in the demo, and I threw a ton of different tracks at it. Anyhow, much as I wanted to do my house in Goldenear speakers, these cost 20% of the equivalent Goldenears and they sounded great in store so I'm keen to see how they do in real life when wired into my ceilings.

 

[Latent]

Hopefully I am getting it. If I modify the zones from above, am I mapping the zones correctly?

Zone 1: RX-A350 (I would only require 5.1)
Zone 2: RX-A350 (powering 4 speakers)
Zone 3: none
Zone 4: Office – RX-A350 (powering in Yamaha Soundbar YSP-1600 out to TV)
Zone 5: RXV679 – (powering 4 speakers outside)
Zone 6: RXV679 – (room with TV and 2 speakers)

The RX-A350 would be on entertainment center in main room, hiding cable box, Wii and other stuff.
The RXV679 can be hidden in 1st floor closet.

Am I using Zone 4 correctly?

Your post may have been a bit confusing as it relates to the following thread:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/in-wall-vs-floor-standing-and-getting-the-most-out-of-yamaha-rx-a3050.97575/

Also its RX-A3050 as the A350 sounds like an even smaller brother to the RX-A550 which is the entry level in the range.

Lets go though your zones one by one:

Zone 1: Only 5.1? You had bouncy speakers that make it at least 5.1.2 which requires 7 channels of amplification.

Zone 2: Can only power two speakers per zone so you may need an 4 way external power amplifier for 4 speakers (also note that you normally do not get to connect pre-outs at the same time as you use speakers so you can't power two internally and two externally like this)

Zone 4: This zone is kind of limited as it only allows you to pass though HDMI input devices through to an external TV (With a AVR/soundbar in between possibly). Other inputs like MusicCast and network streaming music from the AVR or any non HDMI external sources will not work. If you are only going to use 3 zones from this AVR then you may want to consider a different HDMI2 mode. The second HDMI port can either be used to mirror the main HDMI Video and i'm not sure if it also outputs 2 channel sound from whatever is playing in the main zone as well over the HDMI. second option is to use it for Zone2 which works well as it will pass any audio source as Zone2 if full featured and it now passes any video source as well. Third option is to use it as Zone4 mode which is a bit limited as only HDMI sources pass and nothing else. So if you set it to the Zone2 option you can then use Zone3 (via 2-4 way external amp) for pure audio needs (as long as you make sure to connect all HDMI sources to analog/spdif inputs as well to feed this zone). Another issue with this HDMI zone (either 2 or 4) is that the TV/AVR/Soundbar is not auto controlled by the main AVR and you need to use a separate remote control to turn the device on and to the right input sometimes. You could MusicCast a song to this HDMI output zone but it may not play until you manually activate it for example so one tablet App is not going to do everything for you simply. Another issue with HDMI zone is you may need a long HDMI cable run and this can be costly as long runs may only be possible with special repeaters or CAT5/6 converters. Also you mention using a YSP-1600 for audio in this HDMI zone which is interesting as you can either feed it Auido/Video from the main AVR or if you only want audio only you can use its MusicCast feature to stream sound to this zone. But it may be a bit confusing or fiddly with two zones merged together like this and may require some extra steps to get audio working right at times.

Zone 5/6: You can sort of power 4 speakers as one MusicCast zone using 5 channel stereo sound mode and then power 2 speakers in a second zone. But the zone that has the HDMI TV output has to be the main zone and not zone 2 so your 4 speaker and 2 speaker with TV setup may not work unless you use another 4 channel power amp for zone2. Also remember MusicCast streaming to this second zone is sound only and any video sources have to be connected as inputs into this second AVR. Another issue Jimmy found was that there may be an audio sync delay of some kind if an external input is streamed from the main AVR which could be really anoying.

 

[XEagleDriver]

Jimmy Bond,

I may be too late to this party since, if I read correctly, you already purchased in-ceiling speakers.

However, food for thought concerning the Kitchen, Dining, Office and Workout zones.
In those applications, it is advantageous to provide a coherent audio presentation in as many different locations in the room (i.e. all seats in the dining room, different seating locations in the office, different equipment pieces in the workout area, etc.)as you can. The best in-ceiling speaker design for these type rooms is not the traditional stereo speaker; with one speaker for the left channel and one for the right.

The proper in-ceiling speaker to provide audio in these situations is a dual-voice coil (DVC) speaker. To quote a manufacturer website; "A dual voice coil ceiling speaker allows both of a stereo's channels to drive a single cone, playing both the left and the right channel through a single speaker cone." This type speaker allows you to provide the whole audio signal to many more locations in the room. Having more than one speaker in the room is not to provide "stereo", but rather to provide better coverage across the space, so no individual is so far removed as to receive decreased treble/mids.

I would strongly consider using dual-voice coil in-ceiling speakers in the above four zones, because the goal here is to provide good sound to most of the room and the traditional L/R stereo arrangement is oriented to providing this only at one location. For example, if you are to the left of the left speaker, you will get little to no right channel information, opposite problem when you are to the right of the right speaker, and this also applies when substanially closer to either the L or R speaker. The dual-voice coil provides much more even coverage and better sound across the space.

Lastly, these four zones are for more casual, background music, type listening--I would not get too wound up about having hi-rez codecs--their superior signal will not be noticably better in these zones.

Note: DVC is normally not used in a HT application, where all members have the same seating orientation towards a common video feature and are sitting "fairly well" centered between the left and right speakers.

Cheers,
XEagleDriver

 

[Latent]

Good point XEagleDriver.

What is really anoying is that this would be so much easier to solve in the Receiver end. There should be a sound mode just this purpose so that you can convert a stereo or greater source into mono and play it throughout your room. This is much more efficient than expensive speakers that require twice as much cabling and amplification channels than would otherwise be needed.

Not sure if Mono Movie sound mode helps at all. Something to test out maybe.

If using pre-outs to an external Amp you would have the option of using a simple audio mixer device to sum the two pre-outs and then Y cable the mono output to the amp. Finding a suitable device may not be easy though.

 

[Alexandre]

Good point XEagleDriver.

What is really anoying is that this would be so much easier to solve in the Receiver end. There should be a sound mode just this purpose so that you can convert a stereo or greater source into mono and play it throughout your room. This is much more efficient than expensive speakers that require twice as much cabling and amplification channels than would otherwise be needed.

Not sure if Mono Movie sound mode helps at all. Something to test out maybe.

If using pre-outs to an external Amp you would have the option of using a simple audio mixer device to sum the two pre-outs and then Y cable the mono output to the amp. Finding a suitable device may not be easy though.

The Classé Sigma SSP has a "party mode" mode… just for that: outputs the exact same audio on all speakers… Maybe yours has something similar.

 

[Latent]

Yeah they have a Party mode but its called 5/7/9 channel stereo on Yamaha and it is still stereo. I just tested all audio modes on my older Yamaha RX-V667 and none of the modes including things like mono movie will convert a stereo source to mono. The majority of music does not over use left right channel separation which means that for most tracks using stereo speakers for background music I don't think will be an issue. But for some songs you will lose a bit in some seating/standing positions.

On a side note I was in the local shop today that does Yamaha and they had the new NX-N500 MusicCast wireless monitor speakers. Was thinking it would be nice if you could afford to put a pair of these up high in the corners of every room. But there are probably cheaper options than these out there.