seeking advice on system assembly

[baidarkabob]

Hi There,

I live in a small, oddly shaped house that is off-grid. I would like to build a system that sounds good anywhere in the house and can connect to some outdoor speakers as well. I would like to be able to play music from an ipod, a computer and an second aux in if possible.

The house is 320 square feet. It's central area is shaped like a teepee and there are two 10' by 10' rooms that come off the side. It is entirely open inside except for a loft floor that takes up half of the teepee area.

Ideally this system would run off of DC so that I could listen to music when the inverter is turned off but I do not want to sacrifice sound quality too terribly much. I am hoping to keep power consumption down but here again I do not want to impact sound quality too much. I am willing to spend 2-3K.

Any suggestions?

b

 

[ImcLoud]

Is this for a theater or a 2 channel music system?

I'm thinking 2 ch music...
A small area like that and with your power needs I would be thinking efficiency...

I would get a set of Tekton Lores http://tektondesign.com/lore.html these are super efficient, they dont need much power and sound so accurate, I have a set and would compare them to speakers 3 times the cost... I power mine with a 40w amp and never have to turn it past 25%, 5 watts make these scream...

Then I would buy one of these... $90 http://www.amazon.com/OSD-SSVC2-Speaker-Selector-Control/dp/B002C99DW8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1350185895&sr=8-3&keywords=speakers+source+selector


And then one of these... $350 UPA-200 | 125W x 2 | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monoblock amplifi You can actually go with a much smaller amp apa150 or emotiva mini X will be pleanty...

and one of these... $225 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alpine-PDX2-150-2-Channel-Amplifier-/350586074500?pt=Car_Amplifiers&hash=item51a08ef584

I would wire the 2 amps {speaker outs} to the selector box input and then the speakers to the output...

When you have 120v power use the upa200, when you are using 12v direct press the switch button and use the alpine...

The reason for this alpine amp is, more 12v car amplifiers are not very efficient, but the PDX is super efficient so you will not use a ton of electricity... There are also some pretty efficient a/b class amps out there but the pdx is also very nice looking, not going to look like you slapped a car amp in there and called it a day...

I would just use rca splitters so that your ipod feeds both amps, or get a tc716 switching box and switch sources by pushing buttons... but the splitters will work just as good..
When you wire your 12v to the car amplifier, ground the chassis, and run 12v+ with a switch to the remote line, this will turn it on and off...

You can use your ipod to control volume as well as the switch/selector...

This is very similar to the system I use in my cabin, except I use a cheap house amp and a smaller alpine pdx {we never lock the doors in the cabin and not that anyone would steak anything up there but why tempt them....}

IMO this is your best bet, you would spend under a couple thousand and it would sound really good... I love me lores they sound very flat with definned mids, great lows, and they use audex tweeters that make super nice highs..

another option is to use a pc power supply on the 12v amp and not useing the 120v amp, or usieng a inverter on the 120v amp and not using the 12v amp. But this is simpler...

 

[baidarkabob]

Hi, thanks so much for your feedback. Sounds like you understand my situation.

Looking at the photo, where would you suggest I put the speakers? Front room? Side room? Center room? Center room loft? Again, the interior is all open.

So if I understand correctly, zone 1 would be for the indoor speakers and zone 2 for the outdoor speakers?

Forgive my ignorance, if the amp has just two channels, can it power both the indoor and outdoor speakers at the same time?

What is your guess at the total power consumption of this system while listening?

What would you suggest I do if I wanted to add a very low draw tuner for a few FM stations?

Would the system be improved with inclusion of a sub-woofer or is that overkill for my small house?

Thanks again!
b

 

[baidarkabob]

Oh, and, anyone suggest a decent outdoor speaker for a really wet, salty air climate?

b

 

[ImcLoud]

Hi, thanks so much for your feedback. Sounds like you understand my situation.

Looking at the photo, where would you suggest I put the speakers? Front room? Side room? Center room? Center room loft? Again, the interior is all open.

So if I understand correctly, zone 1 would be for the indoor speakers and zone 2 for the outdoor speakers?

Forgive my ignorance, if the amp has just two channels, can it power both the indoor and outdoor speakers at the same time?

What is your guess at the total power consumption of this system while listening?

What would you suggest I do if I wanted to add a very low draw tuner for a few FM stations?

Would the system be improved with inclusion of a sub-woofer or is that overkill for my small house?

Thanks again!
b

That is an AWESOME little house, I love stuff like that, a friend of mine just bought a 350 sq ft water front home in Narraganset, that amazes me, his kitchen parlor bathroom are one side and bedroom on the other, to get in the basement, {where he has washer dryer work table, and a bowflex} you have to tip his kitchen table up onto the couch to reveal the stair case.... the table is bolted to the hatch...

Anyway... I would go with cheap outdoor speakers because in my experience if you leave them out all year round they dont last long, and nothing sounds super good outdoors {I tryed a few settled on yamaha for $120 a pair}...

As far as how they are powered they will hook up to the distribution block but can not be powered at the same time, there are boxes that allow that and are impedance matching, I will look for one...

As far as placement, with something that small I dont think it will matter or you will have too many options... I can promise you the Tektons will fit that houses style perfectly, these things were made for that house I fell in love with the red ones, but he will do what ever color you want... and if your not running a sub they are imo the best for the money, Zu audio has a similar design that costs double... I have heard them both... and I bought the tekton lores... From what I can see I would throw them in front of them windows, 1 on each side of the door.. With all that glass and the houses size and shape, its not going to be a recording studio but definitely be listenable...

I can move my Lores around the bedroom and they sound good no matter where they are... Rite now I have them about 3 ft apart with a slight pitch backwards, angled slightly towards each other, and they sound nice, no matter where I am in the room, bathroom, or adjacent hallway...

 

[ImcLoud]

This will work if you want to use 2 sets of speakers at the same time or by them selves, and use either the 120v amp or the 12v amp...

Amazon.com: 2 Pair Speaker Selector Switch Switcher Splitter with Volume Level Control, 300Watt, Impedance Matching: Electronics

This one will also let you control the volume for each set of speakers, you just want to make sure you are only using one amplifier at a time, but can run both speaker sets at the same time... I have a lot of experience with these little boxes, I have used one from this company, but a different model, we ran it way over powered and to my knowledge it is still working... You will be in this units power range with the amps I suggested...

Here are the outdoors I use http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-NS-AW350W-Indoor-Outdoor-Speakers/dp/B0001VHARY/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1350229827&sr=1-3&keywords=yamaha+outdoor+speakers yamaha has some that will handle more power too... I made some covers for mine out of material from an old car cover and keep some silicone containers in there with them...

Definitely a fun project you are getting ready for... I would like to see and hear your thoughts when its all done...

I changed the diagram for the outdoor speakers , you can use either box I linked above, one will allow playing both sets of speakers simultaneously or singularly, and the other is either or not together...

 

[jcl]

There has been much discussion on the Tektons in another thread. I would check out that discussion.

Klipsch makes some very efficient speakers as well and they are carried by Best Buy so you can go take a listen and see if you like the sound.

As to the amplifier, why not get a T-amp that can be ac and dc powered? There are many flavors here:
Amplifiers (including mini amplifiers, T-Amplifiers and stereo amplifiers) in the Home Audio / Video Department at Parts Express | 106

If you're getting 8 ohm speakers with 95+ db sensitivity you won't need a big amp to push them.

 

[ImcLoud]

There are multilpe ways to accomplish the amplifier portion of this, you can go with separate amps {my choice} or just get a 12v car amplifier and hook it into a powersupply for 120 and right to the battery for 12v heres a good power supplly, kind of expensive but I have had one for a while and it runs my soldering iron and rc chargers with no problems... http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=120-556 Easily build a switch and relay box to control weather you want 12v or 120v, but having the separate amps is just my preference especially if you can afford them... Like I said I did they at the cabin and it works very well..

I tend to stay away from tripath class t amps for systems that will get a lot of use, I had some experience with them, they are very efficient but low powered and they do not like certain ohm loads, I had some diy speakers that were very efficient they were rated at 8 ohms but as I was later told after clipping the t amp into trash is that they could dip as low as 4.. Lesson learned, but I still had another one, that for some reason used to blow up the horns in my speakers?

Someone with more experience with them can chime in, Ive only owned 2... the 30w models will easily power a set of lores but not sure who makes efficient outdoor speakers....

As far as Klipsch difinitely listen before you buy, to me they are VERY bright, and although efficient, I had a hard time getting a set I owned to sound good in my mud room, ended up selling them {and took a beating}...

There is a Tekton post around here, but beware, there may be 4 people in that post that actually heard tektons products and as for owning them, maybe 2... I have never heard a person that heard the tektons say anything bad about them... For real world advice on Tekton check Audiokarma, there are a few guys that spent $3000+ on Tekton products that are happy with them, thats where I tend to put my faith, I know I only spent around $1000 on my lores and if I wasnt happy with them, I can promise you I wouldnt have owned for this long... They are truly something different and special... {I cant speak for his entire line since I only heard mlores, lores, and pendragons...} all had a nice delivery with accurate sound, detailed and powerful lows... Although I wont be spending $2500 on any set of speakers, the lores are a good deal at $1000....

 

[baidarkabob]

Thanks again folks,

It would be great if someone else on the board could chime in about using a T-amp for my situation. That is intriguing.

How about a no frills (except maybe a remote), high quality 12V powered receiver? Any suggestions on that front? I really do not want to use a power-supply that requires 120 all the time because just having my inverter turned on cost me 20W of load.

ImcLoud, would those Lores have to be left on the floor or would it be OK for me to figure out a way to wall/ceiling mount? How do you think the Lores compare with their bookshelf models?

Thanks again!

b

 

[jcl]

I just thought the simplicity of an amp that can be ac and dc powered would be good in your case. In a small space less is more is my thinking. There are certainly many other ways of powering your speakers.

I had an original Sonic Impact T amp and it never caused harm to any of my speakers. However, I only used it only with honest 8 ohm bookshelf speakers with 88+ db sensitivity in smaller, rather reflective rooms (12' x 14' or less). Let's face it, the original t amp was more like 5 w/ch into 8 ohms. I'm sure if pushed it couldn't take much.

It came to grief one winter morning when a static charge arced the 1/2" or so from my finger to the amp.

There are more powerful t amps today. I think if your speakers are an honest 8ohm, and they are efficient, a t amp would work fine in your small space.

Pi Speakers is another brand that specializes in efficient speakers that people have commented favorably on. I however have not heard them myself. Pi Speakers - unmatched quality and state-of-the-art performance

Geddes is another, although not cheap : Loudspeakers
I have heard the Abbeys (I think that was the model), they sounded good. They were out of my price range so i didn't listen to them to intently...

Chase Home Theater is another that has more recently been making waves : https://www.chasehometheater.com/

If you google speakers for set amps it will give you more ideas of efficient speakers.

Having seen what the sun and salt air on cape cod can do to wood, plastic, fiber glass, aluminum, and steel I'd open your windows and point your speakers out.

I've friends with Yamaha and Boston Acoustics speakers by their pools. I don't know what they are powered with. They're fine for background music.

 

[ImcLoud]

Thanks again folks,

It would be great if someone else on the board could chime in about using a T-amp for my situation. That is intriguing.

How about a no frills (except maybe a remote), high quality 12V powered receiver? Any suggestions on that front? I really do not want to use a power-supply that requires 120 all the time because just having my inverter turned on cost me 20W of load.

ImcLoud, would those Lores have to be left on the floor or would it be OK for me to figure out a way to wall/ceiling mount? How do you think the Lores compare with their bookshelf models?

Thanks again!

b

I havent heard any of their bookshelfs, I will soon since my father in law bought a pair of 81t's after hearing my lores, but he is in FL and we havent been down there since he bought them {have to wait for xmass when we go down}... He how ever is very fond of them, he powers them with a pair of old acrosound mono tube amps {which is used to have a pair of custom made bookshelfs with fostex speakers in them}. But anyway he says they are very nice, and well worth the money... He said they are very warm and what it sounded like impressed him the most was the lows, he said he never heard bookshelfs go that low before...

But anyway, there are tons of bookshelf sout there in your budget, I was super impressed with the Wharfedale jades {just bought a pair}, they are $1500 but they sounded fantastic and were very well made...

 

[baidarkabob]

I am wondering what advantages a 120V amp have. I am assuming that the 120 amps are more powerful and might provide a cleaner source of power but I do not know what I am really talking about. Will the P2x or the T - amp sound different from the U-200? I do not need to have two power supplies for any other reason than wanting the best sound when I have the inverter running but if the sound difference is insignificant then I may be making the system unnecessarily complicated.

thoughts?

Thanks again,

b

 

[ImcLoud]

I am wondering what advantages a 120V amp have. I am assuming that the 120 amps are more powerful and might provide a cleaner source of power but I do not know what I am really talking about. Will the P2x or the T - amp sound different from the U-200? I do not need to have two power supplies for any other reason than wanting the best sound when I have the inverter running but if the sound difference is insignificant then I may be making the system unnecessarily complicated.

thoughts?

Thanks again,

b

Well your budget had room for it, but if you really just want to run 12v all the time I would just get the Alpine, they sound very good... Plus they are known for being efficient and clean...
I thought you had either 12v or 120v.... Hence the 2 amplifiers, you will free up a lot of budget with out the 120v system and the switching box.

 

[baidarkabob]

Thanks ImcLoud,

If there are no real advantages to the 120 amps I will probably just go with the 12V. I work out of this cabin during the day and have to run the inverter while my computer and peripherals are on. When I quit working I like to turn the inverter off. I can use my lights, VHF radio and cell phone with only 12V and it would be sweet if I could add the sound system to that as well.

After pulling the tape on a few things I think that floor standing speakers are just too big for my situation and I am going to have to go with a shelf system.

What do you think of the Ascend Sierra 1 speakers and how do you think they compare to the Klipsch RB 81 models? Looks like the Sierra's are quite a bit smaller, which would be nice.

For rear vented speakers, how far away from the wall should they be?

I really appreciate your help!

b

 

[ImcLoud]

Thanks ImcLoud,

If there are no real advantages to the 120 amps I will probably just go with the 12V. I work out of this cabin during the day and have to run the inverter while my computer and peripherals are on. When I quit working I like to turn the inverter off. I can use my lights, VHF radio and cell phone with only 12V and it would be sweet if I could add the sound system to that as well.

After pulling the tape on a few things I think that floor standing speakers are just too big for my situation and I am going to have to go with a shelf system.

What do you think of the Ascend Sierra 1 speakers and how do you think they compare to the Klipsch RB 81 models? Looks like the Sierra's are quite a bit smaller, which would be nice.

For rear vented speakers, how far away from the wall should they be?

I really appreciate your help!

b

Call Deena at Ascend she will give you any measurements you need, I love ascend speakers, they are a great value... The sierras sound really good {although for theater I prefer the 340's}... The sierras are very nice for music...
I was thinking be as efficient as possible, that is why I recomended the tektons... sens= 86.5db vs 95db for the tektons, it doesnt sound like a lot but it equates to...
If you want 92db at 5m with 3 db headroom...
The Sierras need 177 watts
the Tekton 81's will need 25 watts To make the same volume level!!!
And I am sure the tektons will sound great, you are welcome to come and listen to my Lores, everyone that hears them is amazed... 3 people bought tektons after hearing mine... All were happy...

You still have the problem of the outdoor speakers, but that shouldnt be a huge issue, just add another smaller 12v amp, and be done with it...

After doing some thinking....
Here is what I would do...
2- of these Helix Blue B TWO 2-channel car amplifier — 80 watts RMS x 2 at Crutchfield.com
These are a/b class, and I heard them on a set of mb quarts, pretty impressive amplifier, and after doing some thinking even though the PDX is efficient, the A/B class is also eff and a better choice for your application... Plus I heard class d amps arent great for tweeters..
{"the output filter in a class D amps is always designed to a specific load impedance. Loading it with a a different impedance will affect the high frequency cut-off point. Specifically loading it with half the impedance will halve the cut-out point"}.. Stick with an a/b {that is what most home amps are}... These amps will deliver about 40w- 8 ohms although I believe Tekton can make these 4 ohm if you like...

a set of tekton bookshelf $650- I am sold on this guys designs, I know some say the Pendragons, aren't going to sound good because of design flaws {although I NEVER heard anyone say a bad thing about them, and he has sold a lot of them {you have to wait for him to finish a set}. I heard a set and they were only being powered with a 3 watt amplifier, but they sounded good... Anyway, the bookshelf design cant be disputed its that same as any other setup, just more efficient... And these will allow you to hardly work your amplifier, saving energy and sounding awesome...

for outdoors- a set of Bose 251's, I am not a bose fan by any means, but when I asked my friend about your system {he is a boat audio genius} he said these stand up to everything and sound really good, he said he had a boat pulled in that had sunk in the ocean off of Point Judith and was completely upside down for 4 days, the speakers still work to this day... I remember him telling me the story but I couldn't remember which speaker.... You can get them on ebay for a few hundred bucks...

I think that would be a really nice system... If you decide on the ascends you will want a larger amplifier, but helix makes a bunch of diff sizes and ch counts.. {you can always go with 1 four channal amp and put switches on the speaker leads to tun on and off what speakers you didnt want to use... there are a ton of ways to do this...

 

[baidarkabob]

Awesome feedback,

so would the Klipsch bookshelf speakers consume even less power? I am not sure how to do the math on this and would appreciate a reference to an online calculator if one exists. The Klipsch RB-81s have a sensitivity of 97dB @ 2.83V / 1m...

 

[Steve81]

Awesome feedback,

so would the Klipsch bookshelf speakers consume even less power? I am not sure how to do the math on this and would appreciate a reference to an online calculator if one exists. The Klipsch RB-81s have a sensitivity of 97dB @ 2.83V / 1m...

Peak SPL Calculator

A couple thoughts as well:

Sensitivity is only one piece of the puzzle to tell you how much power a speaker will consume to reach a given SPL, and it is a number that can be fudged to an extent by the manufacturer.

Klipsch for example (and to the best of my knowledge) typically rates for expected "in room" sensitivity by adding 4dB on to the figure they achieve in their anechoic chamber. Obviously if you compare this with another manufacturer that is specifying anechoic sensitivity, you'll come to a faulty conclusion.

Further, impedance also plays a big part in a sensitivity specification. The 2.83V input typically specified for sensitivity equates to 1 watt at an impedance of 8 ohms, 2 watts at an impedance of 4 ohms, and 4 watts at an impedance of 2 ohms. This is important given that we don't really know in most cases what the actual impedance curve of a given speaker looks like. There are cases of "8 ohm nominal" speakers (specifically in Klipsch's case, but I'd doubt they're alone) that have been measured to dip down into the 2 ohm range, and this clearly has a huge impact on the issue.

 

[zieglj01]

so would the Klipsch bookshelf speakers consume even less power? I am not sure how to do the math on this and would appreciate a reference to an online calculator if one exists. The Klipsch RB-81s have a sensitivity of 97dB @ 2.83V / 1m...

The Klipsch RB81 measures around 91db sensitivity >
However, it will still play loud.

 

[Steve81]

The Klipsch RB81 measures around 91db sensitivity

Not exactly as impressive a figure as 97dB; to be sure, 91dB still makes the RB81 above average in sensitivity, but the hard numbers bear out that there is a lot less of a gap than you might expect at first glance from say, an Ascend CMT-340 which ranks at 90dB anechoic.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Sorry not much help from me - OP is getting already pretty decent advice, other than some photoshop skills

speaking of small dc amps - these are supposedly quite good:
smsl amplifier | eBay