Sealed can't be all bad for Home Theater use

[Fleet]

I've been researching a new subwoofer purchase. This site (of course) is great. I keep coming up with different solutions for what I want, though. I've got it narrowed down to SVS or PSA finally, though.

It seems the "rule of thumb" is that ported subs are for movies and sealed are for music.

Okay. That's straightforward.

I use my home theater setup about 50% music and 30% TV and 20% movies. 50/50 breakdown I guess.

So, it's not real clear to me which way to go.

I live in an apartment, and don't want a 100+ lb monster of a sub. I don't really play my setup all that loud - no where near reference level. The loudest is just above conversation level, but mostly I can talk over the sound easily. I would like to experience the explosions in movies a little bit. My Denon 2310 receiver is set to -15 on movies and -25 on music/tv. I guess I do turn it up a bit for movies.

My room is 15 x 15 with Cathedral Ceiling.

I am inclined to get a Sealed Subwoofer, like the SVS SB-1000 or PSA XS15. (or maybe the new SVS SB-2000).

I'm sure any of these would be good for music.

For a ported one, I could go SVS PB-1000 or PSA XV15 (or maybe the new SVS PB-2000)

I have the space for any of these. And $800 is in my budget.

It seems that Ported is very popular on this forum. For some reason, when I look at Best Buy or on Crutchfield or in a dedicated local stereo store, there aren't any ported subs for sale that I can see.

If ported subs are the best for movies, how come they aren't made by Definitive Technology and Martin Logan, mass brands, etc...?

I am committed to an Internet Direct purchase, just can't figure out which way to go.

Can a sealed sub work for movies? I'm just a bit confused still. I almost have it worked out.

Thanks

 

[Nestor]

I wouldn't get hung up on the ported-vs-sealed debate. The important factor is performance.

 

[its phillip]

if you have the budget, multiple sealed is the way to go imo

 

[fuzz092888]

Like Nestor said, don't get hung up on sealed vs ported, especially since you're not looking for huge SPL's. All of my subs are sealed (albeit with some EQ) for my HT and I definitely get up to reference level. Sealed will usually get you deeper bass at the expense of maximum SPL, while ported will be louder up to a point and then the response falls off pretty hard. Either way, none of it matters unless the content is there in whatever you're watching.

For the levels you're talking about either would work fine. About the two subs you're talking about, the SVS will have a bit lower distortion and the PSA will get louder. I'd probably go with the SVS if I were you. You don't need the extra SPL's the PSA will get you and SVS has stellar customer service.

 

[fuzz092888]

if you have the budget, multiple sealed is the way to go imo

Like two 18" dual opposed along with a single 18", EQ'ed pretty flat to 10hz?

 

[its phillip]

Yes, like that. Only more of them

 

[lsiberian]

In my experience the best bass systems for both were ported, but ported systems are not necessary for great sound. IMO sealed systems are ideal for apartment dwellers because they are easy to move, more neighborly and take up less floor space. My sealed system does a fantastic job and is superior to many of the ported systems I've heard. I do recommend you get a Great Gamma to reduce lfe transmission between units and rooms.

 

[fuzz092888]

Yes, like that. Only more of them

I ain't got any more room for more of them

Unless I start stacking them......

 

[Bear123]

Perhaps, if funds allow, purchase both the PB2000 and SB2000. You can audition them both in home for 45 days. This should allow you to be absolutely certain of which option is best for you. Just double check with SVS to be sure this fits their no questions asked return policy, but I think it does. Keep the one you like, return the other.

 

[DannyA]

I am not one of the technical experts on this site and I have not even come close to hearing as many different products but I'll relate my experience since you mentioned you were looking at the PSA XS-15. I'll let the experts handle the sealed vs ported debate.

I bought the PSA XS-15 for music and it sounds super. 80% music, 20% movies. I was going to buy two but it sounds so good with one that I'm not going to buy a second unless a have a little extra cash in my pocket. The XS-15 also sounds great with movies too. I just watched Pacific Rim (not a great movie) which has lots of crash, bang and boom. I was impressed. I wish I could give you more feedback on movies but they sound great so not much more to say there. For music, once I had the unit well placed and setup I was blown away by the music quality though. I have to adjust the gain on the sub occasionally depending on the music track or movie but I think that is to be expected on any sub. I have a few songs I like to play for friends to show off my system and everyone one of them commented on how awesome the bass sounded. Based on the reviews I have read on the SVS subs however I would think you can't go wrong with either sub. Hope this helps!

My favorite (Rock) show off songs:

Pink Floyd - Time
Ramstein - Engle
Volbeat - Doc Holiday

Pioneer PDP-5020FD
Yamaha RX-V3800
Samsung BD-F5700 Blu-ray Player
Sony - PS3
Definitive Technology BP7006 Mains
Definitive Technology CS-8060 HD Center
Definitive Technology Pro Monitor 1000 Surround
Power Sound Audio XS 15 Subwoofer

 

[ImcLoud]

Danny try this song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdVVLbe1rfY , there I noticed my musical subs pick up everything and you can hear separation where my HT subs sound good but kind of run the end of the lows off, like they don't have a finish to them, where with the music subs they wrap at the end of the bass note... Plus this songs shows how nice your highs are with the cymbals sound and Domingo's voice sounds really good on any speaker with neutral mids..

 

[3db]

Danny try this song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdVVLbe1rfY , there I noticed my musical subs pick up everything and you can hear separation where my HT subs sound good but kind of run the end of the lows off, like they don't have a finish to them, where with the music subs they wrap at the end of the bass note... Plus this songs shows how nice your highs are with the cymbals sound and Domingo's voice sounds really good on any speaker with neutral mids..

A good sub is a good sub and there is no discrimination between a music sub or an HT sub. Its like argueing speakers are designed for music or for HT.. That is also a phallacy. A good speaker will be adept in both applications.

 

[ImcLoud]

A good sub is a good sub and there is no discrimination between a music sub or an HT sub. Its like argueing speakers are designed for music or for HT.. That is also a phallacy. A good speaker will be adept in both applications.

I disagree, there are good subs for music and good subs for movies...
In an HT setup I want as much output as possible and tend to not care as much about the size of the enclosure. I don't care about a little port noise its just a movie, I know some people spend tons of money on HT systems but the truth of the matter is, you are watching a movie, get over it, your not doing "critical" listening, your not going to notice a little cabinet resonance or port noise, I have been on the sets of a few films during production and there is nothing controlled about how the movie is recorded, and I was on the set of Brotherhood for a bunch of episodes and I can promise you TV shows are even worse" you have cars driving by tons of ambient noise, I have watched movies and heard production talk in the background, so if you think you need $10,000 super clear speakers for HT you are wasting your time, get a sub that is not muddy and has enough output for your tastes, some nice flat mains that you can live with for long periods of time {soft tweeters and laid back is my preference} and save your money... Ported subs fit this bill...

Now with music.... You want fast tight bass, you don't need a lot of output {at least I don't}, a 300watt sub will keep up with a 200w set of mains with zero issues, I would rather have a smaller enclosure for music so I can fit two subs and they don't look silly next to a small set of bookshelfs, and I have a b tested comparable ported vs sealed subs and sealed has a more realistic/musical sound, sure there are ported subs that sound good with music, but get that same sub put it in a small sealed box and then compare it, if you think having the ported enclosure sounds better you are lying to yourself because you want a ported sub...

And I agree that a good speaker will be good for music and HT, BUT some people like forward bright speakers for their music, so it pops out at them, you put the same set of speakers in front of a tv and you want be able to sit through one episode of The Nanny with out a bottle of Advil... I have heard speakers that sound good with HT but I dont like them for music.
Me and 3db obviously have different tastes in equipment, for example your PSB image series, I could sit through a movie with them no issue but for music I wouldn't set them up if they were free. and the LV12r is also fine for movies, but I have now heard two different units {the one I bought my mother and another one Steve got for his basement HT} and I hear a mechanical noise in both, Steve and my brother also hear it but to them its not a big deal and with HT I agree but with music I would NEVER add that to a 2.1 system, there are much better sounding sealed subs...

So not to argue, we all have our different tastes, mine just happen to be the good ones jk, lol... I prefer sealed for music and of course would also like sealed for ht but it would cost much more I would need 4 of them to get the "rumble" iget from a single ported sub...

 

[zhimbo]

I disagree, there are good subs for music and good subs for movies...

What this means is that 1. some people care less about quality for HT and just want loud, and 2) extreme output or extension isn't important for many people's music listening habits.

However, I definitely want quality sound in movies - which often have music in them, after all - and listen to some music with loud and *very* deep bass.

It isn't nonsensical to talk about "music" subs and "movie" subs, but a sub that isn't good on both can't really be considered a "great" sub, not without a lot of caveats.

 

[shadyJ]

That is also a phallacy.

Lol, get your mind out of the gutter!

 

[3db]

Lol, get your mind out of the gutter!

Its safer down in the gutter. I can only fall up rather than down.

 

[3db]

I disagree, there are good subs for music and good subs for movies...

Your personal tastes does not define what makes a good sub nor a good speaker. Well designed subs/speakers do both applications equally well. I'm very capable of hearing mechanical noises and I'm sensitive to it but that hasn't been my experience with the LV-12R at all. Since you really didn't work with Rythmik to try and alleviate a possible problem, I don't put too much stalk in your assessement of their products.

I'll say this again.. properly designed sub/speakers will work well for both HT and music whether they agree with your personal tastes or not. Audio is a subjective thing. I personally would not buy a product that was not equally adept for both music and HT as this my requirement.

 

[fuzz092888]

I agree with 3db. An accurate, low distortion sub, that isn't experiencing phase or delay issues, and that can handle the SPL's you're looking for over the frequency range you're looking for will be equally adept at music or movies. Obviously the room and personal biases will play an extremely large role in this equation since the bass frequencies are most affected by the room.

Just look at that one review of the Phil 3's from Stereophile from CAF. I forget who wrote it, but they noted the bass sounded a little "slow" which is completely inaccurate. The issue had to do with a bias against TL alignments and less than ideal placing of the Phil's. I can guarantee you the Phil's don't have "slow" bass and neither should any sub that is properly placed, with low distortion, yadda yadda yadda.

 

[j_garcia]

I agree with 3dB also. I prefer sealed for movies and music. That grew out of a desire for sealed for music, but as mentioned, a good sub will be good with everything. I enjoyed my former vented sub's rumble down low, but after switching to a sealed sub, I don't miss it as much as I thought.

 

[shadyJ]

I disagree, there are good subs for music and good subs for movies...
In an HT setup I want as much output as possible and tend to not care as much about the size of the enclosure. I don't care about a little port noise its just a movie, I know some people spend tons of money on HT systems but the truth of the matter is, you are watching a movie, get over it, your not doing "critical" listening, your not going to notice a little cabinet resonance or port noise, I have been on the sets of a few films during production and there is nothing controlled about how the movie is recorded, and I was on the set of Brotherhood for a bunch of episodes and I can promise you TV shows are even worse" you have cars driving by tons of ambient noise, I have watched movies and heard production talk in the background, so if you think you need $10,000 super clear speakers for HT you are wasting your time, get a sub that is not muddy and has enough output for your tastes, some nice flat mains that you can live with for long periods of time {soft tweeters and laid back is my preference} and save your money... Ported subs fit this bill...

Now with music.... You want fast tight bass, you don't need a lot of output {at least I don't}, a 300watt sub will keep up with a 200w set of mains with zero issues, I would rather have a smaller enclosure for music so I can fit two subs and they don't look silly next to a small set of bookshelfs, and I have a b tested comparable ported vs sealed subs and sealed has a more realistic/musical sound, sure there are ported subs that sound good with music, but get that same sub put it in a small sealed box and then compare it, if you think having the ported enclosure sounds better you are lying to yourself because you want a ported sub...

And I agree that a good speaker will be good for music and HT, BUT some people like forward bright speakers for their music, so it pops out at them, you put the same set of speakers in front of a tv and you want be able to sit through one episode of The Nanny with out a bottle of Advil... I have heard speakers that sound good with HT but I dont like them for music.
Me and 3db obviously have different tastes in equipment, for example your PSB image series, I could sit through a movie with them no issue but for music I wouldn't set them up if they were free. and the LV12r is also fine for movies, but I have now heard two different units {the one I bought my mother and another one Steve got for his basement HT} and I hear a mechanical noise in both, Steve and my brother also hear it but to them its not a big deal and with HT I agree but with music I would NEVER add that to a 2.1 system, there are much better sounding sealed subs...

So not to argue, we all have our different tastes, mine just happen to be the good ones jk, lol... I prefer sealed for music and of course would also like sealed for ht but it would cost much more I would need 4 of them to get the "rumble" iget from a single ported sub...

In movies, the sound mix magic happens in post production, not during filming. This is also true for music production as well, they typically don't just record a single performance and say, "that's a wrap" and send out that recording as the master to get printed. Also keep in mind just how much sound content in movies is music. And keep in mind that the kind of music recordings that movies often have are a lot more complex and are more demanding to record and mix than most any band's album you get from iTunes. And not just because they are recorded, mixed, and mastered in surround sound, but because the dynamics needed for full orchestras are way higher than typical band music, and the micing and multiple track layers from recording and mixing a 40+ person orchestra (sometimes a lot more) are far more complex than a 5 dude band.

Beyond soundtrack film music, the kind of bass used in film effects is more complex than a lot of music bass. Think of all the rich harmonics from the sound in that scene in War of the Worlds when the robot monster emerges from the ground. Now think about how clean most bass is from recordings. Bass in music isn't usually played in some kind of complex chord, its usually just a single note and some percussion. If you compared the spectral analysis or a Fourier analysis from the War of the Worlds scene against a passage from almost any music recording, you would see that the War of the Worlds is way more complex and consequently more demanding and more difficult for a sub to get right- and that isn't even talking about the deep bass in that scene, that is just talking about the complexity from 30 to maybe 100 Hz. There is a lot going on there, as there is with many other movie effect sounds.

But anyway, your argument seems to be accurate sound reproduction in movies does not matter as much as music. That, of course, is a matter of opinion, but from a technical point of view movies are more difficult to reproduce accurately, that is not a matter of opinion. As for your own comparisons, those don't mean much unless you were blinded at the time. You have some different subs in your house, so sometime you ought to set up the subs in a manner in which they are all level matched and all have a similar response at your listening position, and blindfold yourself and have a friend switch back and forth between subs during some music passages. If you think sealed subs are better because they have less port based overhang, compare the data-bass results between the VTF15h and SVS SB12 which is one of your music favs. In two ports open mode, the VTF15h has less group delay, a tighter impulse response, and faster decay times than the SB12- the VTF15h with its monster cabinet and gaping ports!