Samsung QN75QN85AAFXZC - Vs. Denon AVR-X4400H - Upscaling to 4 K.

-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic General
Hi All,

One of my TVs finally died (a 13 year old 55 inch Toshiba LED LCD.) and my Misses was interested in getting our 55 inch Samsung in the Games Room, moved down into the basement where the Toshiba was. (She calls it my Man Cave - I call it the Junk Room as there's still a ton of stuff "temporarily stored" there from our recent -4 years ago- major renovation of the main floor. OMG!) The new TV would go into the Games Room.

I've been coveting a new larger 4K TV for the Games Room for ages, but promised the Misses I'd hold off until one of the 55s died. When she said let's buy a new one, I jumped on it before her focus changed to something else. There's a story to buying the TV but I won't bore you with that, other than we bought a Samsung QN75QN85AAFXZC quite quickly. She thought bigger was going to be a 65 inch like our friends bought a year or so ago. Of course I wanted it bigger, and was shocked (and very pleased) when she said to heck with the budget, let's spoil ourselves and buy the QN75QN85. It was over $1K more than than we intended to spend.

So after getting it home and hanging it on the wall (more stories), I looked into how to get 4K signals displayed. (I know a bit Bass Ackwards.) Most of the time we will be watching TV shows and Sports. And of course Blu-ray Movies and Concerts; as this is where our Denon AVR-X4400H system resides, with the Atmos speaker set-up. My plan was to always get a 4K TV into this room, and even bought a Samsung UBD-K8500 Ultra HD Blu-ray Player when I saw it for less than $100 (CAN) some years ago.

I assumed (wrong) that our Cable / Internet supplier - Shaw - was transmitting 4K content - at least for sports channels by now. Shaw offers no native 4K content unlike their major competitor Telus. Of course I just signed 2 year contract with Shaw before buying this TV! (Duh!). So now I'm onto plan B. Football and Hockey beckons me!

I am appalled at both the Manual included with the TV, and eManual supplied by Samsung. I expected much more detail for what the TV cost. Or even decent video links on how to setup and run this set. (Nope nothing.) I can't seem to find how to upscale the 1080P TV signals (via HDMI) from the Shaw Cable box to "near" 4K, with Samsung's Intelligent AI upscaling. My understanding today (?) is it's done automatically, although I have no documentation to support that, and I can't figure out how to get the TV to tell me what it is displaying. I can get it to tell me what signal it is receiving for the input / image being displayed.

So, just for grins I decided to try the upscaling the Denon AVR-X4400H can provide. I have this system (like most?) set up where everything connects via the receiver, and the TV becomes just a monitor - as the Cable Box is the tuner for Television. Even though I've had the Denon for a couple years, I never tried the upscaling until last night, as the old TV was only 1080p. It looked good when I tried it on a 1080p source (the Cable Box). But then I'm still in the honeymoon phase with this TV, and to me it's really impressive with anything displayed.

Have you tried the upscaling in a Denon receiver to 4K? Have you compared it to what a 4K TV (like our QN75QN85) will do on it's own? I need a more critical eye than mine to give me their seasoned opinion. Meanwhile I'll keep digging for more info on the QN75QN85.

Thanks for the assist.
 
Mark E. Long

Mark E. Long

Audioholic General
Hi All,

One of my TVs finally died (a 13 year old 55 inch Toshiba LED LCD.) and my Misses was interested in getting our 55 inch Samsung in the Games Room, moved down into the basement where the Toshiba was. (She calls it my Man Cave - I call it the Junk Room as there's still a ton of stuff "temporarily stored" there from our recent -4 years ago- major renovation of the main floor. OMG!) The new TV would go into the Games Room.

I've been coveting a new larger 4K TV for the Games Room for ages, but promised the Misses I'd hold off until one of the 55s died. When she said let's buy a new one, I jumped on it before her focus changed to something else. There's a story to buying the TV but I won't bore you with that, other than we bought a Samsung QN75QN85AAFXZC quite quickly. She thought bigger was going to be a 65 inch like our friends bought a year or so ago. Of course I wanted it bigger, and was shocked (and very pleased) when she said to heck with the budget, let's spoil ourselves and buy the QN75QN85. It was over $1K more than than we intended to spend.

So after getting it home and hanging it on the wall (more stories), I looked into how to get 4K signals displayed. (I know a bit Bass Ackwards.) Most of the time we will be watching TV shows and Sports. And of course Blu-ray Movies and Concerts; as this is where our Denon AVR-X4400H system resides, with the Atmos speaker set-up. My plan was to always get a 4K TV into this room, and even bought a Samsung UBD-K8500 Ultra HD Blu-ray Player when I saw it for less than $100 (CAN) some years ago.

I assumed (wrong) that our Cable / Internet supplier - Shaw - was transmitting 4K content - at least for sports channels by now. Shaw offers no native 4K content unlike their major competitor Telus. Of course I just signed 2 year contract with Shaw before buying this TV! (Duh!). So now I'm onto plan B. Football and Hockey beckons me!

I am appalled at both the Manual included with the TV, and eManual supplied by Samsung. I expected much more detail for what the TV cost. Or even decent video links on how to setup and run this set. (Nope nothing.) I can't seem to find how to upscale the 1080P TV signals (via HDMI) from the Shaw Cable box to "near" 4K, with Samsung's Intelligent AI upscaling. My understanding today (?) is it's done automatically, although I have no documentation to support that, and I can't figure out how to get the TV to tell me what it is displaying. I can get it to tell me what signal it is receiving for the input / image being displayed.

So, just for grins I decided to try the upscaling the Denon AVR-X4400H can provide. I have this system (like most?) set up where everything connects via the receiver, and the TV becomes just a monitor - as the Cable Box is the tuner for Television. Even though I've had the Denon for a couple years, I never tried the upscaling until last night, as the old TV was only 1080p. It looked good when I tried it on a 1080p source (the Cable Box). But then I'm still in the honeymoon phase with this TV, and to me it's really impressive with anything displayed.

Have you tried the upscaling in a Denon receiver to 4K? Have you compared it to what a 4K TV (like our QN75QN85) will do on it's own? I need a more critical eye than mine to give me their seasoned opinion. Meanwhile I'll keep digging for more info on the QN75QN85.

Thanks for the assist.
Hi All,

One of my TVs finally died (a 13 year old 55 inch Toshiba LED LCD.) and my Misses was interested in getting our 55 inch Samsung in the Games Room, moved down into the basement where the Toshiba was. (She calls it my Man Cave - I call it the Junk Room as there's still a ton of stuff "temporarily stored" there from our recent -4 years ago- major renovation of the main floor. OMG!) The new TV would go into the Games Room.

I've been coveting a new larger 4K TV for the Games Room for ages, but promised the Misses I'd hold off until one of the 55s died. When she said let's buy a new one, I jumped on it before her focus changed to something else. There's a story to buying the TV but I won't bore you with that, other than we bought a Samsung QN75QN85AAFXZC quite quickly. She thought bigger was going to be a 65 inch like our friends bought a year or so ago. Of course I wanted it bigger, and was shocked (and very pleased) when she said to heck with the budget, let's spoil ourselves and buy the QN75QN85. It was over $1K more than than we intended to spend.

So after getting it home and hanging it on the wall (more stories), I looked into how to get 4K signals displayed. (I know a bit Bass Ackwards.) Most of the time we will be watching TV shows and Sports. And of course Blu-ray Movies and Concerts; as this is where our Denon AVR-X4400H system resides, with the Atmos speaker set-up. My plan was to always get a 4K TV into this room, and even bought a Samsung UBD-K8500 Ultra HD Blu-ray Player when I saw it for less than $100 (CAN) some years ago.

I assumed (wrong) that our Cable / Internet supplier - Shaw - was transmitting 4K content - at least for sports channels by now. Shaw offers no native 4K content unlike their major competitor Telus. Of course I just signed 2 year contract with Shaw before buying this TV! (Duh!). So now I'm onto plan B. Football and Hockey beckons me!

I am appalled at both the Manual included with the TV, and eManual supplied by Samsung. I expected much more detail for what the TV cost. Or even decent video links on how to setup and run this set. (Nope nothing.) I can't seem to find how to upscale the 1080P TV signals (via HDMI) from the Shaw Cable box to "near" 4K, with Samsung's Intelligent AI upscaling. My understanding today (?) is it's done automatically, although I have no documentation to support that, and I can't figure out how to get the TV to tell me what it is displaying. I can get it to tell me what signal it is receiving for the input / image being displayed.

So, just for grins I decided to try the upscaling the Denon AVR-X4400H can provide. I have this system (like most?) set up where everything connects via the receiver, and the TV becomes just a monitor - as the Cable Box is the tuner for Television. Even though I've had the Denon for a couple years, I never tried the upscaling until last night, as the old TV was only 1080p. It looked good when I tried it on a 1080p source (the Cable Box). But then I'm still in the honeymoon phase with this TV, and to me it's really impressive with anything displayed.

Have you tried the upscaling in a Denon receiver to 4K? Have you compared it to what a 4K TV (like our QN75QN85) will do on it's own? I need a more critical eye than mine to give me their seasoned opinion. Meanwhile I'll keep digging for more info on the QN75QN85.

Thanks for the assist.
Not sure I will help with the answer for your questions but I just put in a QN 90 A 65 inch I’ve never been able to find what the display is out putting lol . But I will say it upscales just amazing on 1080 content it’s very hard to tell it’s not true 4 k content. Blu-rays are very good as well streaming 4 k from apps is the best I’ve seen . But I still can’t tell what’s being displayed or output from the display and it’s killing me lol !
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
The display is putting out 4K.

PERIOD!

I'm not sure why people ask this question, I've heard it before over the years. Your TV is a 4K TV. For all 8 million pixels to show something, it means that the TV (or projector) must convert whatever is coming in, to the native resolution of the display. It means it MUST process any lower incoming formats to 4K. The video processing is a major factor of many purchases as a number of TVs don't do the best job in the world with their video processing.

All displays have some level of video processing which is applied/added to the incoming signal, and this is why reviewers spend so much time going through different displays and testing them. It's why reviews should be read.

There is no way for any display to show anything at all without something which converts the incoming HDMI signal to the format which specifically can be shown on that display. Along the way, it runs through the color settings of the TV, the contrast settings, the brightness settings, and anything else that is a part of that video processing, which may include creative frame interpolation, deblurring, and a lot more. When Sony goes up against LG, when LG is the manufacturer of both OLED panels, how is it that Sony can do better? They have better video processing!

So, what matters is the TV letting you know the incoming video signal. This matters because you can see if the Denon is actually doing the upconversion, or if that is being left to the TV entirely. But, even if the incoming signal is native 4K, it still must go through the video processing of the display.

Some devices don't need to do video processing. They can take the incoming HDMI signal and pass it on to the next device without changing it at all. Receivers have a bit of an issue as they can pass on video untouched, but to display on screen menus, it immediately requires that the video go through processing which adds the overlay of the volume or something else.

Is it better to use the internal upconversion of the Denon? I expect that that Denon does a good job with upconversion and likely does so with minimal image impact. It likely doesn't impart any color changes or utilize CFI or any advanced features. It just takes standard incoming video formats (480i, 720p, 1080i, 1080p, etc.) and converts them to 2160p and passes them on to the display. The display will then run that incoming 2160p video and ensure it is fully compatible with the display and make it look as good as it possibly can... always.

Certainly a major consideration is the quality of the source (like your cable box). Not just the fact that it isn't sending 4K video to begin with, but the reality that the quality of the source is FAR more dependent on the compression being used. A Blu-ray Disc carries data rates which exceed 20Mb/s. That's compressed, 24 frames per second, MP4 (HVEC typically), 2160p video.

When it leaves the Blu-ray player, it is no longer compressed. It is now uncompressed 4K/24 video and it is running at about 9Gb/s. Think about how much compression is being applied to video that is on the visibly best looking format there is... Then think about what your cable company is doing to the video when it can only operate at 10Mb/s or even lower data rates for their compressed video. Think about the quality of the cable box in use which must decompress the video from an incoming 10Mb/s stream to something that looks something like HD. Think about Netflix and other streaming services which operate, quite often, at even lower data rates.

Don't worry all that much about what your TV is doing to the image, but certainly you can A/B test what the Denon may be doing to the image with it's upconversion. I would bet that it does a much better job than whatever device is in front of it that is actually creating the image.

 
Mark E. Long

Mark E. Long

Audioholic General
The display is putting out 4K.

PERIOD!

I'm not sure why people ask this question, I've heard it before over the years. Your TV is a 4K TV. For all 8 million pixels to show something, it means that the TV (or projector) must convert whatever is coming in, to the native resolution of the display. It means it MUST process any lower incoming formats to 4K. The video processing is a major factor of many purchases as a number of TVs don't do the best job in the world with their video processing.

All displays have some level of video processing which is applied/added to the incoming signal, and this is why reviewers spend so much time going through different displays and testing them. It's why reviews should be read.

There is no way for any display to show anything at all without something which converts the incoming HDMI signal to the format which specifically can be shown on that display. Along the way, it runs through the color settings of the TV, the contrast settings, the brightness settings, and anything else that is a part of that video processing, which may include creative frame interpolation, deblurring, and a lot more. When Sony goes up against LG, when LG is the manufacturer of both OLED panels, how is it that Sony can do better? They have better video processing!

So, what matters is the TV letting you know the incoming video signal. This matters because you can see if the Denon is actually doing the upconversion, or if that is being left to the TV entirely. But, even if the incoming signal is native 4K, it still must go through the video processing of the display.

Some devices don't need to do video processing. They can take the incoming HDMI signal and pass it on to the next device without changing it at all. Receivers have a bit of an issue as they can pass on video untouched, but to display on screen menus, it immediately requires that the video go through processing which adds the overlay of the volume or something else.

Is it better to use the internal upconversion of the Denon? I expect that that Denon does a good job with upconversion and likely does so with minimal image impact. It likely doesn't impart any color changes or utilize CFI or any advanced features. It just takes standard incoming video formats (480i, 720p, 1080i, 1080p, etc.) and converts them to 2160p and passes them on to the display. The display will then run that incoming 2160p video and ensure it is fully compatible with the display and make it look as good as it possibly can... always.

Certainly a major consideration is the quality of the source (like your cable box). Not just the fact that it isn't sending 4K video to begin with, but the reality that the quality of the source is FAR more dependent on the compression being used. A Blu-ray Disc carries data rates which exceed 20Mb/s. That's compressed, 24 frames per second, MP4 (HVEC typically), 2160p video.

When it leaves the Blu-ray player, it is no longer compressed. It is now uncompressed 4K/24 video and it is running at about 9Gb/s. Think about how much compression is being applied to video that is on the visibly best looking format there is... Then think about what your cable company is doing to the video when it can only operate at 10Mb/s or even lower data rates for their compressed video. Think about the quality of the cable box in use which must decompress the video from an incoming 10Mb/s stream to something that looks something like HD. Think about Netflix and other streaming services which operate, quite often, at even lower data rates.

Don't worry all that much about what your TV is doing to the image, but certainly you can A/B test what the Denon may be doing to the image with it's upconversion. I would bet that it does a much better job than whatever device is in front of it that is actually creating the image.

Thank you for your response I don’t use the processor in my Yamaha avr I let the new tv handle all processing and up conversion it does a fabulous job on all sources feed it so I let it .
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Ninja
Nicely put @BMXTRIX. The processing of incoming signals is the issue. There is quite a bit that can be done to it before it gets there and sometimes it is noticeable and other times not so much. Disc player resolutions can be set to Auto which might upscale lower resolutions before going out. They can also be set to direct mode. Cable and OTA boxes can be set to the resolution of each channel or upscale to say 1080p before sending info out. Some receivers can convert analog video and then upscale it before sending it out. Now, there are resolutions and frame rates unheard of years ago that are of concern to those using new consoles who need to know how a TV can handle all of the new rates and resolutions, not to mention HDR, input lag, chroma subsampling, ALLM, VRR, G-SYNC... Here is a review of the Samsung mentioned at the start. So many specs!:oops:
 
Mark E. Long

Mark E. Long

Audioholic General
Nicely put @BMXTRIX. The processing of incoming signals is the issue. There is quite a bit that can be done to it before it gets there and sometimes it is noticeable and other times not so much. Disc player resolutions can be set to Auto which might upscale lower resolutions before going out. They can also be set to direct mode. Cable and OTA boxes can be set to the resolution of each channel or upscale to say 1080p before sending info out. Some receivers can convert analog video and then upscale it before sending it out. Now, there are resolutions and frame rates unheard of years ago that are of concern to those using new consoles who need to know how a TV can handle all of the new rates and resolutions, not to mention HDR, input lag, chroma subsampling, ALLM, VRR, G-SYNC... Here is a review of the Samsung mentioned at the start. So many specs!:oops:
I used these guys calibration settings on my QN90A 65 inch it does look amazing on all content. It was pricey for a tv but you do get what you pay for in a very good display .
 
-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic General
The display is putting out 4K.

PERIOD!

I'm not sure why people ask this question, I've heard it before over the years. Your TV is a 4K TV. For all 8 million pixels to show something, it means that the TV (or projector) must convert whatever is coming in, to the native resolution of the display. It means it MUST process any lower incoming formats to 4K. The video processing is a major factor of many purchases as a number of TVs don't do the best job in the world with their video processing.

All displays have some level of video processing which is applied/added to the incoming signal, and this is why reviewers spend so much time going through different displays and testing them. It's why reviews should be read.

There is no way for any display to show anything at all without something which converts the incoming HDMI signal to the format which specifically can be shown on that display. Along the way, it runs through the color settings of the TV, the contrast settings, the brightness settings, and anything else that is a part of that video processing, which may include creative frame interpolation, deblurring, and a lot more. When Sony goes up against LG, when LG is the manufacturer of both OLED panels, how is it that Sony can do better? They have better video processing!

So, what matters is the TV letting you know the incoming video signal. This matters because you can see if the Denon is actually doing the upconversion, or if that is being left to the TV entirely. But, even if the incoming signal is native 4K, it still must go through the video processing of the display.

Some devices don't need to do video processing. They can take the incoming HDMI signal and pass it on to the next device without changing it at all. Receivers have a bit of an issue as they can pass on video untouched, but to display on screen menus, it immediately requires that the video go through processing which adds the overlay of the volume or something else.

Is it better to use the internal upconversion of the Denon? I expect that that Denon does a good job with upconversion and likely does so with minimal image impact. It likely doesn't impart any color changes or utilize CFI or any advanced features. It just takes standard incoming video formats (480i, 720p, 1080i, 1080p, etc.) and converts them to 2160p and passes them on to the display. The display will then run that incoming 2160p video and ensure it is fully compatible with the display and make it look as good as it possibly can... always.

Certainly a major consideration is the quality of the source (like your cable box). Not just the fact that it isn't sending 4K video to begin with, but the reality that the quality of the source is FAR more dependent on the compression being used. A Blu-ray Disc carries data rates which exceed 20Mb/s. That's compressed, 24 frames per second, MP4 (HVEC typically), 2160p video.

When it leaves the Blu-ray player, it is no longer compressed. It is now uncompressed 4K/24 video and it is running at about 9Gb/s. Think about how much compression is being applied to video that is on the visibly best looking format there is... Then think about what your cable company is doing to the video when it can only operate at 10Mb/s or even lower data rates for their compressed video. Think about the quality of the cable box in use which must decompress the video from an incoming 10Mb/s stream to something that looks something like HD. Think about Netflix and other streaming services which operate, quite often, at even lower data rates.

Don't worry all that much about what your TV is doing to the image, but certainly you can A/B test what the Denon may be doing to the image with it's upconversion. I would bet that it does a much better job than whatever device is in front of it that is actually creating the image.

Thanks for the post. The reason that I ask this question is that I was a data driven electronics technician / electrician who was a trained Six Sigma Black Belt. I dealt in Facts and without good documentation, or recent Test results that can be analyzed, it's all conjecture or marketing spin. Even though I left that occupation many years ago, I find myself going back to those roots whenever a technology question arises. Hence my request for assistance.

While I am impressed with the Samsung QN85A TV, the lack of a decent manual has left me out in the cold. They are like Asus here. I almost exclusively buy Asus Motherboards to build various PCs for my family & close friends. (The Gamer Box builds are the most interesting.) But Asus, who used to have the best manuals in the industry is putting out watered down versions now that are a faint representations of their past work. Asus and Samsung are probably on par with the industry now, but that doesn't make it right.

I don't believe it's not possible for Samsung to advise in a pop up box, or sub menu, that their Intelligent AI upscaling is actively processing the input signal. They could even tweak the existing firmware where it says what the input signal is, to say the upscaling is active - possibly even describing the output.

As posted above, when other devices upscale signals there is information in their menus (and their manuals) to tell you. This is not an unreasonable request.

I was hopeful (and probably a bit lazy) others would chime in with their experiences using a Denon Receiver's upscaling, versus letting their TV do it. But if upscaling TVs always do it to the incoming signal by default, then you either get the TV doing it solo, or in some combination on top of what the Denon would achieve.

As I've never had a 4K TV before this is all new to me. I've been focused on the Audio portion of the hobby. Hopefully I'll get a handle on it.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Ninja
Most leave their AVRs on Passthrough and let the TV do the work since they do it well. For HDR, just be sure to set the Denon to Enhanced mode and make sure the Samsung HDMI port, usually the ARC/eARC port, connecting the Denon has Input Signal Plus set to ON. The combination of the two will allow for proper HDR passthrough from devices connected to the Denon. HDR signals played from the TV's Smart apps do not need any adjustments and will handle HDR automatically. When checking the incoming signal with the Samsung info pop up, you want to see UHD HDR along with the resolution information. If it shows UHD alone, HDR is not working for one reason or another from incoming devices.
 
-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic General
Sorry for my slow reply. I took your advice on the the 75" Samsung QN85A TV and reset the X4400H to simply pass through the Video signals, and let the TV process as needed. It works much better upscaling that way, and 2 months into ownership, I am very pleased with the QN85A. I forgot to check the UHD HDR info but I'll try to remember to look at it when I'm poking the TV next time.

But I'm too impressed just watching it these days to go for more tweaking! Thanks for the assist.
 
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