Salk Customization...Why Wouldn't I do This?

[2channel lover]

I have a pair of Song3-As in the hopper with a SC Song Center. We're not at the stage of routing for the drivers yet so I got a quick min to make an upgrade.

I don't think the RAAL 70-20 makes sense financially or if it will behave with the Accuton Mid. But the 70-10D I think matches well with the Accuton.

In short, I'm thinking of upgrading the 64-10 RAAL with the 70-10D.

I'm hearing mostly raves about this tweeter and I see it the higher line Salks, SS8...Jim said, his theory on speakers is to get the midrange "right" and you pretty much got it...in his line the highs and lows get better the higher up you go.

I have the lows covered, why wouldn't I do this?

@Dennis Murphy , AH crew

 

[TheWarrior]

I have a pair of Song3-As in the hopper with a SC Song Center. We're not at the stage of routing for the drivers yet so I got a quick min to make an upgrade.

I don't think the RAAL 70-20 makes sense financially or if it will behave with the Accuton Mid. But the 70-10D I think matches well with the Accuton.

In short, I'm thinking of upgrading the 64-10 RAAL with the 70-10D.

I'm hearing mostly raves about this tweeter and I see it the higher line Salks, SS8...Jim said, his theory on speakers is to get the midrange "right" and you pretty much got it...in his line the highs and lows get better the higher up you go.

I have the lows covered, why wouldn't I do this?

@Dennis Murphy , AH crew

The 70-10D requires a higher crossover which may not be ideal for the midrange used - depending on its operating range, raising the crossover could cause beaming and/or poor off axis performance.

 

[2channel lover]

The 70-10D requires a higher crossover which may not be ideal for the midrange used - depending on its operating range, raising the crossover could cause beaming and/or poor off axis performance.

Compatibility...agreed. I did think about that one. The combination of the 70-10D/5"Accuton combo appears to be in use in other speakers in the Salk line, so I'm thinking they have the crossover to make it work. The 64-10 has very good reviews from what I've read, so I'm not suggesting an upgrade is a must. If there is a benefit to it, I'm interested to know what it might be.

FWIW, I have asked Jim this...we'll see what his reply his.

 

[TheWarrior]

Compatibility...agreed. I did think about that one. The combination of the 70-10D/5"Accuton combo appears to be in use in other speakers in the Salk line, so I'm thinking they have the crossover to make it work. The 64-10 has very good reviews from what I've read, so I'm not suggesting an upgrade is a must. If there is a benefit to it, I'm interested to know what it might be.

FWIW, I have asked Jim this...we'll see what his reply his.

No model #'s are given for these 5" accuton's so we don't know that they are the same. Combine that with the low frequency crossover in each speaker, there's no way to know how much that midrange is being asked to do. All the parts need to work together.

I know it says the Song 3A has an 'upgraded midrange' but don't confuse that with actually swapping drivers for a given speaker. You are very quickly asking them to build you a custom speaker, far beyond veneering!

 

[2channel lover]

No model #'s are given for these 5" accuton's so we don't know that they are the same. Combine that with the low frequency crossover in each speaker, there's no way to know how much that midrange is being asked to do. All the parts need to work together.

I know it says the Song 3A has an 'upgraded midrange' but don't confuse that with actually swapping drivers for a given speaker. You are very quickly asking them to build you a custom speaker, far beyond veneering!

Custom...agreed, but that's within Jim's scope...many of his designs are tweaked with different drivers.

Obviously, some additional cost/performance improvement play into it and as we're discussing compatibility.

 

[Swerd]

The combination of the 70-10D/5"Accuton combo appears to be in use in other speakers in the Salk line, so I'm thinking they have the crossover to make it work. The 64-10 has very good reviews from what I've read, so I'm not suggesting an upgrade is a must. If there is a benefit to it, I'm interested to know what it might be.

In a 3-way speaker, such as yours, I don't think there would be any benefit by using the RAAL 70-10D instead of the 64-10.

The 64-10 is a newer and less expensive RAAL tweeter. It's existence was one of the things which led to the possibility of moderate cost Salk 3-way speaker. The other Salk 3-way models that use the 70-10D tweeter all pre-date the Song3 models.

One of the ways the 64-10 achieves its lower cost is by limiting it to a higher crossover frequency. It's sound quality, in its proper frequency range, is probably not less than any of the RAAL tweeters than do go lower. For the 70-10D, RAAL suggests a 4th order crossover at no lower than 2800 Hz. I don't know what they recommend for the 64-10. Accuton says their 5" mid range (I believe Salk uses this) works in the range of 250 to 5000 Hz.

I don't know what crossover frequencies Dennis used in the Song3-A. But I do know that he spends great time and effort testing to find out what works well, and not so well, with mid range drivers and tweeters.

See what Jim and Dennis have to say about this.

 

[2channel lover]

In a 3-way speaker, such as yours, I don't think there would be any benefit by using the RAAL 70-10D instead of the 64-10.

The 64-10 is a newer and less expensive RAAL tweeter. It's existence was one of the things which led to the possibility of moderate cost Salk 3-way speaker. The other Salk 3-way models that use the 70-10D tweeter all pre-date the Song3 models.

One of the ways the 64-10 achieves its lower cost is by limiting it to a higher crossover frequency. It's sound quality, in its proper frequency range, is probably not less than any of the RAAL tweeters than do go lower. For the 70-10D, RAAL suggests a 4th order crossover at no lower than 2800 Hz. I don't know what they recommend for the 64-10. Accuton says their 5" mid range (I believe Salk uses this) works in the range of 250 to 5000 Hz.

I don't know what crossover frequencies Dennis used in the Song3-A. But I do know that he spends great time and effort testing to find out what works well, and not so well, with mid range drivers and tweeters.

See what Jim and Dennis have to say about this.

There may not be any benefit...I'm sure I'll get a firm answer on it either way...was researching drivers last week and the question came about.

 

[2channel lover]

@Swerd @TheWarrior

Thanks guys.

Spoke with Jim. The performance would not any benefit...the 64-10 and 70-10D are going to sound very similar in the upper regions of the frequency...the 70-10D & 70-20 go lower is the difference. The Accuton picks up the lower range frequency the 70-10D reaches allowing them to use the lower priced 64-10....horizontal dispersion overall performance within it's range will be very similar to the 70-10D.

My mind is at rest now, carry on.

 

[Swerd]

My mind is at rest now, carry on.

This is quite normal behavior for someone who is waiting… and waiting… for his Salk speakers to arrive.

At least you aren't asking what kind of cables to use once your new speakers arrive . (I recommend oxygen-free unobtanium of at least 10 AWG. You can use smaller gauges only if you get the liquid nitrogen cooled cables.)

You should expect August to go by v e r y s l o w l y.

 

[2channel lover]

This is quite normal behavior for someone who is waiting… and waiting… for his Salk speakers to arrive.

At least you aren't asking what kind of cables to use once your new speakers arrive . (I recommend oxygen-free unobtanium of at least 10 AWG. You can use smaller gauges only if you get the liquid nitrogen cooled cables.)

You should expect August to go by v e r y s l o w l y.

LOL...I'm surfing and ended up on a DIY site, and tweeters, etc. conversation and how RAAL is/was run out of his parents basement or home, the whole nine.

Yeah...the last check I had with Jim there were about 15 projects ahead of mind so I hadn't been on progress site in about 3 weeks or so. I decided to check in last week and oh snap, activity! ETA end of Sept/early OCT looks like it's holding up so far...I think August might go okay, but SEPT will crawl.

Edited to note...I'm purposely starting a tedious landscaping project the week after Labor Day....a 100' long dry creek bed.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

The 70-10D requires a higher crossover which may not be ideal for the midrange used - depending on its operating range, raising the crossover could cause beaming and/or poor off axis performance.

Maybe I need another cup of tea, but isn't there some confusion concerning the 70-10D? I'm not aware of any Salk speakers that use it. I use it on my Phil 3's, but I think that's it. The 70-10 can be crossed lower than the 64-10, but not as low as the 70-20. I agree with Jim that there would be no no advantage to using the 70-10 in the Song 3 Accuton. The Accuton is very smooth above 3 kHz, so the less expensive 64-10 well do just as well as the 70-10. I could easily use it instead of the 70-10 in the Phil 3, but I'm not up to answering all of the e-mails the switch would generate.

 

[everettT]

Just order a pair of the Salk/ Rythmik 15" Subs in a matching or complementary finish, have the crossovers built in their own enclosures, and have Jim build a rack or console to house your gear. #upgradeideas

 

[TheWarrior]

Maybe I need another cup of tea, but isn't there some confusion concerning the 70-10D? I'm not aware of any Salk speakers that use it. I use it on my Phil 3's, but I think that's it. The 70-10 can be crossed lower than the 64-10, but not as low as the 70-20. I agree with Jim that there would be no no advantage to using the 70-10 in the Song 3 Accuton. The Accuton is very smooth above 3 kHz, so the less expensive 64-10 well do just as well as the 70-10. I could easily use it instead of the 70-10 in the Phil 3, but I'm not up to answering all of the e-mails the switch would generate.

The only confusion was on whether this was even an applicable change. I don't think I can agree that the 70-10 can be crossed lower (functionally yes, but not achieving the same performance). I think they compress enough in the Phil 3 (when compared side by side with Beryllium for movie sound tracks, music only they're equal or ribbons win) as it is. Good to know the midrange would have been up to the task, clearly the decisions you had made were already the right ones!

 

[2channel lover]

Maybe I need another cup of tea, but isn't there some confusion concerning the 70-10D? I'm not aware of any Salk speakers that use it. I use it on my Phil 3's, but I think that's it. The 70-10 can be crossed lower than the 64-10, but not as low as the 70-20. I agree with Jim that there would be no no advantage to using the 70-10 in the Song 3 Accuton. The Accuton is very smooth above 3 kHz, so the less expensive 64-10 well do just as well as the 70-10. I could easily use it instead of the 70-10 in the Phil 3, but I'm not up to answering all of the e-mails the switch would generate.

Thanks for clearing that up...not there was ever a problem, but it's solved nonetheless.

 

[2channel lover]

Just order a pair of the Salk/ Rythmik 15" Subs in a matching or complementary finish, have the crossovers built in their own enclosures, and have Jim build a rack or console to house your gear. #upgradeideas

 

[Dennis Murphy]

The only confusion was on whether this was even an applicable change. I don't think I can agree that the 70-10 can be crossed lower (functionally yes, but not achieving the same performance). I think they compress enough in the Phil 3 (when compared side by side with Beryllium for movie sound tracks, music only they're equal or ribbons win) as it is. Good to know the midrange would have been up to the task, clearly the decisions you had made were already the right ones!

I only said the 70-10 could be crossed lower than the 64-10, which is certainly true. I didn't say it was intended for super-loud playback on HT at RAAL's suggested crossover point. In any event, I've raised the crossover point on the 3's to near 4 kHz in order to avoid any issues in HT.