Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
With my crossover set @ 60hz, do all other speakers play 60hz & above when they are set to small? The reason I am asking, I got a slap out of my center. It was cranked pretty good, and for some reason my Rage Against the Machine concert dvd sends TOO much signal to the center! For some reason, I was thinking the mains got the 60hz & above, and the rest didn't.

Would it be better to set the mains to LARGE with the crossover @ 60hz & the LFE to SWFR, or set to SMALL @ 60hz & the LFE to BOTH. At the moment, I put it back to SMALL @ 80hz & SWFR. The sub & total sound is better @60hz, but my center don't seem to like it very loud. I mean, it was VERY LOUD.

Thanks for any help! :)

center
fronts & surrounds
sub
 
Last edited:
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
I know I am not the only one with one of these receivers. :rolleyes:
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
zumbo said:
With my crossover set @ 60hz, do all other speakers play 60hz & above when they are set to small? The reason I am asking, I got a slap out of my center. It was cranked pretty good, and for some reason my Rage Against the Machine concert dvd sends TOO much signal to the center! For some reason, I was thinking the mains got the 60hz & above, and the rest didn't.
With crossover at 60 Hz, all small speakers will get approximately 60 Hz and above. Crossovers are not brick wall filters - they have a slope which determines how quickly they work. 1st order = 6db/octave, 2nd order = 12 dB/octave, 3rd order = 18 dB/octave, 4th order = 24 dB/octave. The typical high-pass filter in receivers is 2nd order - so at 30 Hz (one octave below the crossover), the signal will be attenuated by 12dB - a reduction for sure, but still quite a bit of signal that may be too low for your speakers to handle well.

Is that Rage dvd Dolby Digital 5.1? Is so, its possible that the center is just mastered hot. That compounded with the speakers not dealing too well with the low frequencies (due to your crossover setting) could cause what you describe. If it is DD 2.0 or PCM, you could use PLII Music mode and de-emphasize the center (change the 'center width' parameter.)

zumbo said:
Would it be better to set the mains to LARGE with the crossover @ 60hz & the LFE to SWFR, or set to SMALL @ 60hz & the LFE to BOTH. At the moment, I put it back to SMALL @ 80hz & SWFR. The sub & total sound is better @60hz, but my center don't seem to like it very loud. I mean, it was VERY LOUD.
You can experiment and see what you like, but in general, Small @ 80 Hz & SWFR is going to be the best choice. You should look at the F3 (-3dB) point of your center speaker. It could be that it doesn't go as low as the others and that is why 60 Hz is too low and even 80Hz might not be good either. If it goes down to 75Hz, you should start at 80 Hz and go up to 100 Hz or 120Hz until you get the sound you want. There are other issues with LFE+MAIN or setting mains to Large, and we can talk about that if you wish, but all small and subwoofer on is kind of a 'universal rule of thumb' for HT.

All of this assumes you have calibrated each of the channels to be about equal. If you haven't, you should - maybe its just that the center level is too high.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
System is calibrated, & the problem is only with the Rage dvd. But, it made me worry enough to change it back. I can't find a F3 (-3db) rating for my center. The frequency response is 50hz-32khz. I guess I will leave it set to 80hz for dvd's, & set to 60hz for two-channel stereo.

Thanks!
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
Frequency response is usually listed like '50 Hz - 32 kHz +/- 3dB'. So it's 50 Hz, unless that speaker is really even flatter and is only down 1 or 2 dB at 50 Hz. 60 Hz crossover should be a decent crossover for that. Perhaps its just the mastering of that particular dvd.

If the dvd is DD 2.0 or PCM and not DD 5.1, try PLII Music mode and set the center width to 4 or 5 so it sends more info to the left and right and less to the center. Would be curious if that reduces the problem.
 
Nomo

Nomo

Audioholic Samurai
My Sony reciever had 2 internal cross-overs. I always assumed that these controlled the frequencies sent to the speakers depending on there size settings, that being sub/large/small. This may have been incorrect on my part but the assumption was; if I set the lower to say 60hz most of the signal below 60hz would be sent to the subwoofer and setting of the high pass determined which speakers got only those frequencies above that mark. To my knowledge my 1500 does not have a high-cut cross over. My question is what does identifying a speaker as large/small actually do?
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
Large vs Small determines how the receiver's bass managment will split up a full range signal and route it to the speakers. It really has nothing to do with physical size. All receivers have two filters (crossover) - a high-pass and a low-pass, although not many let you set them separately as your Sony. The terminology is confusing till you get some experience with it and the topic of bass management can fill a book, but here goes...

High-pass: Lets the 'highs' pass according to the crossover frequency. It starts working BELOW the crossover frequency so that signals at the crossover frequency and above pass to the respective speaker. There is no standard for what order crossover the receiver uses, though most newer receivers follow the THX recommendation, even if they are not THX certified. Thus, the high-pass is 2nd order (12dB/octave). With a crossover of 60 Hz, 60 Hz and above signals are not touched. One octave below (30 hz) will be attenuated by 12 dB.

Low Pass: Let's the 'lows' pass. It starts working ABOVE the crossover. THX specifies 4th order (24 dB/octave). With 60 Hz crossover, 120 Hz would be attenuated by 24 dB. Frequencies at 60 Hz and below are not touched.

The idea of bass management is to get a smooth (flat) frequency response across the whole range by sending only the frequencies the speaker can handle well. Small vs Large is an attempt to simplify all this a bit. Setting both low pass and high pass yourself requires that you know exactly what order the crossovers are, exactly the frequency response of the speakers (they have crossovers too and you have no idea what order they are unless it is explicitly stated in the manual or they are THX, in which case the high pass is 2nd order.)

So...setting the speaker to small means it should get all frequencies at or above the crossover frequency. Setting the speaker to large means it should get a full-range signal (so only the speaker's crossover will touch the signal).

Here are all the combinations
-----------------------------
Subwoofer=Yes, all speakers Small:
All speakers get the frequencies at or above the crossover. The sub gets all frequencies below the crossover. LFE, which should not be confused with 'regular' bass, goes to the sub. LFE is the ".1" in a Dolby Digital track and is band-limited to 120Hz - usually it is much lower than that (80Hz and below). 9 times out of 10, this is the best setting and the only thing to determine is the appropriate crossover frequency. A good rule of thumb is to set it at 1/2 to 1 octave above the F3 point of the least capable speaker. So if the speaker's frequency response is listed as 40Hz - 20 kHz +/- 3dB, 60-80 Hz is a good start. If the speakers aren't very bass capable; like say they only go down to 100 Hz, then the rule may not work too well (1/2 octave above would be 150Hz and 1 octave above will be 200 Hz - that is getting to the point where you will be able to localize the bass; ie determine where it is coming from). In that case, just experiment with a setting right at the speakers F3 or go slightly above).


Subwoofer=Yes, some speakers Small, others Large:
Small speakers get frequencies at or above the crossover; Frequencies below the crossover that were destined for the small speakers get re-routed to the sub. The Large speakers get a full-range signal. LFE, if present, goes to the sub only.

Subwoofer=LFE+MAIN (or 'Double Bass' or LFE+SWFR - whatever the receiver calls it):
Small speakers get frequencies at or above the crossover; freqencies destined for the small speakers get re-routed to the sub. Large speakers get a full range signal + the LFE, if present.
If all speakers are Large, then all speakers get a full range signal + the LFE.

Subwoofer=No:
Usually the receiver requires that at least the front speakers be set to Large. The Large speakers get a full range signal. Bass destined for any small speakers that is at or below the crossover get re-routed to the Large speakers. LFE is lost.
 
toquemon

toquemon

Full Audioholic
I have the 1400 and i don't have this problem you're talking about. Maybe it's the mix of the DVD. I have found that some DVD's sound better if I use de analog mode (PCM Stereo or Dolby Digital 2.0) and then hear them in DolbyPrologicII than using the DolbyDigital 5.1 mix of the DVD. Examples of these are:

1. Alejandro Sanz en vivo (a Spanish artist) - Sounds better in Dolby Digital 2.0 using DolbyPrologicII decoding. The problem using Dolby Digital 5.1 here is that almost everything is mixed to the Center Channel.

2. Dream Theater (live) - Sounds better in PCM Stereo using DolbyPrologiII decoding. The problem here is the mix, it sounds very bad.

I don't know, maybe your Rage DVD has the same mix problem.
 
Nomo

Nomo

Audioholic Samurai
Zumbo,
I think we're side-stepping the really important question here:

Rage or Audioslave? Your preference?
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
Rage!
Soundgarden!

Creed!
Caroline Spine!

Stone Temple Pilots!
G&R!

And Van Halen with David Lee Roth! :D
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top