Runaway Toyotas. You saw it on this site first!

[TLS Guy]

Since Audioholics is in the news scoop business of late over re branding, I'm going to continue in this scoop mode.

In modern engine management the accelerator no longer has a mechanical connection to the throttle butterfly, or injector pump slide in diesels. The reason is fuel economy.

In a standard mechanical control, the accelerator sets the air flow and fuel flow follows. With the accelerator sending a signal to the engine management control via a sending unit, the engine management is in control of fuel and air independently.

This system came to Europe first in the nineties. They had runaway cars and especially heavy good vehicles and IEC 61508 standard came about. The testing and compliance are rigorous and the engine has to die if a problem is detected with the system and the vehicle can not be restarted.

Now in 2004 Toyota withdrew models from Europe, the Camry being first. They claimed it was due to poos sales, but on my frequent visits I saw lots of them. I'm now convinced Toyota removed the vehicles from Europe because they could not meet IEC 61508.

The dealers have been urging Toyota to bring back the Camry but they have refused.

Ford are going through this process in Europe now and this is what is involved.

I think the press have done a sloppy job on this story so far.

As a Toyota Camry owner, I think Toyota have a huge problem. I think Toyota and other manufacturers should be made to show their systems can meet IEC 61508. I personally don't think another Toyota involved in this should move off the lot until they can!

I have also posted this on my blog.

 

[j_garcia]

This was in the news yesterday when they ceased sales of half of their models and even shut down the factories manufacturing those vehicles for an unspecified amount of time. As you mentioned, it isn't a new issue either; this has been known for years - they are just doing something about it now.

 

[Davemcc]

they are just doing something about it now.

You mean they can't get away with blaming it on floormats anymore?

 

[highfigh]

Since Audioholics is in the news scoop business of late over re branding, I'm going to continue in this scoop mode.

In modern engine management the accelerator no longer has a mechanical connection to the throttle butterfly, or injector pump slide in diesels. The reason is fuel economy.

In a standard mechanical control, the accelerator sets the air flow and fuel flow follows. With the accelerator sending a signal to the engine management control via a sending unit, the engine management is in control of fuel and air independently.

This system came to Europe first in the nineties. They had runaway cars and especially heavy good vehicles and IEC 61508 standard came about. The testing and compliance are rigorous and the engine has to die if a problem is detected with the system and the vehicle can not be restarted.

Now in 2004 Toyota withdrew models from Europe, the Camry being first. They claimed it was due to poos sales, but on my frequent visits I saw lots of them. I'm now convinced Toyota removed the vehicles from Europe because they could not meet IEC 61508.

The dealers have been urging Toyota to bring back the Camry but they have refused.

Ford are going through this process in Europe now and this is what is involved.

I think the press have done a sloppy job on this story so far.

As a Toyota Camry owner, I think Toyota have a huge problem. I think Toyota and other manufacturers should be made to show their systems can meet IEC 61508. I personally don't think another Toyota involved in this should move off the lot until they can!

I saw this on the news last night. The video I watched (I was listening to music, instead) showed a floor mat jammed against the pedal and it looked like they were coming up with a clip to hold it in place, like VW and other European makers did/do. Then, they showed a destroyed car, upside-down, at the side of the road. The in-car video showed them speeding down the road before the shot of the car. My first thought was that they should have turned the key Off and put it in neutral, then turned the key to ON, so they can still steer. In neutral, the car won't re-start unless the key is turned to the Crank position. Also, Throttle By Wire usually controls a servo at the throttle. Using the ECM to control the throttle is asking for trouble and if this is how Toyota did it, it's asking for trouble. MasterCraft ski boats have used TBW for several years now and the last time I went to their training sessions, the method they were going to come out with had three sets of wipers for feedback in the servo. If one failed, it had a backup but if two failed, the ECM would drop the engine speed to idle (they don't want to shut the motor off because there would be no way to get to safety in the event of trouble and there's no guarantee that everyone could swim to shore, unlike a car that stops and the people just walk away). That seemed like a logical way to do it and it's similar to GM's version, which has been used on Corvettes for quite some time.

Re: the press doing a bad job- other than the occasional Amber Alert, they stopped being a public service long ago and only live for the occasional event that perpetuates the "media circus" atmosphere. They now affect elections and politics in ways that shouldn't be possible, although that has happened as long as media have existed.

If they covered this up, Toyota has problems and it seems plausible that they may not recover.

With their long history of bad electrical system problems, I shudder to think about how well Ford's version will work. I did find it ironic that they were the ones who bought into Jaguar, in light of "Lucas Electric- Prince of Darkness".

Lucas Refrigeration- are they really the reason the British drink warm beer?

 

[TLS Guy]

With their long history of bad electrical system problems, I shudder to think about how well Ford's version will work. I did find it ironic that they were the ones who bought into Jaguar, in light of "Lucas Electric- Prince of Darkness".

Lucas Refrigeration- are they really the reason the British drink warm beer?

We like warm Beer! Cellar cool we call it.

 

[j_garcia]

We like warm Beer! Cellar cool we call it.

Guinness is OK at room temp (on tap), but most everything else I prefer ice cold.

I don't know if it is a cover up per se, but they definitely tried to say their product was not at fault. I don't see how SOOOO many similar incidents over the course of a number of years could not at least warrant investigation. Regardless of cause, the fact that they now acknowledge it means they are open for personal injury and wrongful death lawsuits.

A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

 

[son-yah-tive]

I never knew you could make a Toyota RUNAWAY.

 

[highfigh]

We like warm Beer! Cellar cool we call it.

To be honest, most American beers need to be so cold the taste buds are deadened. Micro-brews being the exception.

 

[lsiberian]

To be honest, most American beers need to be so cold the taste buds are deadened. Micro-brews being the exception.

That goes with Sodas too.

 

[TLS Guy]

Guinness is OK at room temp (on tap), but most everything else I prefer ice cold.

I don't know if it is a cover up per se, but they definitely tried to say their product was not at fault. I don't see how SOOOO many similar incidents over the course of a number of years could not at least warrant investigation. Regardless of cause, the fact that they now acknowledge it means they are open for personal injury and wrongful death lawsuits.

The reason you like Guinness at around 50 degrees is that is a top fermentation. The art of top fermentation is now pretty much confined to the British Isles. Practically all other beers in the world are bottom fermentations and better cold.

The problem with a top fermentation is that it takes a lot more skill on the part of the brewer. Also consistency from batch to batch is actually impossible. So each brew varies a bit which is part of the charm. Also the shelf life of a good traditional pint of British Bitter is short. So to really enjoy it you have to go the British Isles and get out into the country at that.

In addition there are significant regional differences. That and not knowing from week to week how good the pint will be is part of the fun of it all.

My favorite pint is at the Harbor Inn Southwold. They serve the local brew, Adnams prize Champion Ales.

You have to love this site that can turn worries about runaway vehicles into a thread about beer. Talk about getting off topic.

Anyhow, I have now found out that Toyota have been keeping the lid on these out of control vehicles since 2001.

 

[jostenmeat]

I've almost finished off a sixer of Fuller's ESB. One of my very favorite ales I've drank was a John Smith, but that was over in Europe, and have never seen it here. I have recently heard that he is related Samuel Smith, perhaps his father, can't recall exactly. I also really love Old Peculiar, but this one is particularly expensive. TLS, can you tell me any tidbits on the above delights? SS Winter Welcome is awesome, too.

"Blessing of your heart, you brew good ale."

 

[TLS Guy]

I've almost finished off a sixer of Fuller's ESB. One of my very favorite ales I've drank was a John Smith, but that was over in Europe, and have never seen it here. I have recently heard that he is related Samuel Smith, perhaps his father, can't recall exactly. I also really love Old Peculiar, but this one is particularly expensive. TLS, can you tell me any tidbits on the above delights? SS Winter Welcome is awesome, too.

"Blessing of your heart, you brew good ale."

Fullers is about the only decent London Brewery left. They are at Chiswick. They are right by the flyover as you lave the West End and join the M4 on your way to Windsor, Heathrow and the West.

I have seen John Smith for sale, in fact it is readily available in this region. They are a Northern Brewery. I don't much care for Old Peculiar. I think that is cooked up for North America.

Quite honestly I don't much care for British brews in North America. I think Guinness travels best.

To really know what it is about you have to find a very old brewery, and local pubs with well looked after cellars, that can handle the beer in wooden barrels. They need to pull the beer with the big long brass and ebony levers, so the beer is vacuum sucked out of the wooden barrels. It should not be served up from an aluminum barrel that is pressurized with CO2. You really have to look for that in the British Isles now.

Another of my favorite pubs is the Butt and Oyster at Pin Mill on the River Orwell. They used to serve another good Suffolk Brew, Tolly Cobbold Ales. Sadly this has passed like so much of the "Old World" now. These fine old breweries are disappearing fast, as the younger generation turn to European larger beers, especially the women, who have been referred to as "larger loutets".

Old hands refer to these beers as ""Europiss".

I went into an old pub in Islington, London, a few years ago. There wasn't a British Beer in site. It was full of fancy German urns such as Kronenberg.

I said to the bar man, "I know we won the war and the Germans did better out of loosing it, but this is the limit." I think it was lost on the barman though who was a Malay.

 

[Rickster71]

Let me get this thread back on track. This talk of real beer is forcing me to go to the refrig for an Ommegang Abbey Ale

Looks like history is repeating itself.
Don't know 100% what the Toyota problem is yet, though something similar happened around 1986 to Audi.

Audi sales were up 48%, similar to how popular Toyota is now.
Then CBS's 60 Minutes does a segment on "sudden unintended acceleration" in 1986.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-defense-of-the-audi-5000/

It turned out to be driver error, ham-footed drivers mashing the gas and the brake together simultaneously.
(Not saying that's the case with Toyota)

 

[TLS Guy]

Let me get this thread back on track. This talk of real beer is forcing me to go to the refrig for an Ommegang Abbey Ale

Looks like history is repeating itself.
Don't know 100% what the Toyota problem is yet, though something similar happened around 1986 to Audi.

Audi sales were up 48%, similar to how popular Toyota is now.
Then CBS's 60 Minutes does a segment on "sudden unintended acceleration" in 1986.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-defense-of-the-audi-5000/

It turned out to be driver error, ham-footed drivers mashing the gas and the brake together simultaneously.
(Not saying that's the case with Toyota)

Toyota have been sitting on this since 2001.

There were a raft of eerily similar incidents in Europe during the nineties, and dramatic events involving heavy goods vehicles. They were all due to computer systems, and did not involve one root cause. This resulted in strong action by the EEC, and there should have been similar action here.

As I understand it Ford adhere to IEC safety code. GM have there own which a number of experts feel goes beyond IEC. I have no idea about the rest.

I really doubt this is a mechanical issue, and I think we are going to hear a lot more about this over time.

If it is going to encourage your inebriation Rick, I will now shut up about fine ales and get this thread back on track.

 

[JerryLove]

So if I understand the claim of the OP: Toyota, the world's third largest car maker, has given up billions in revenue because it is unable or unwilling to solve a technical problem that every other car-maker selling in Europe (Opel, Ford, Fiat, BMW, VW, Mercedes, etc) has shown no signifigant issue with?

Also, no auto shows, despite something as grandiose as pulling their cars (and am I to understand that Toyota did design a control computer that is compliant but refuesed for no apparent reason to install it in their Camry in Europe?), no auto shows / mags noticed?

It's a little hard to believe.

 

[TLS Guy]

So if I understand the claim of the OP: Toyota, the world's third largest car maker, has given up billions in revenue because it is unable or unwilling to solve a technical problem that every other car-maker selling in Europe (Opel, Ford, Fiat, BMW, VW, Mercedes, etc) has shown no signifigant issue with?

Also, no auto shows, despite something as grandiose as pulling their cars (and am I to understand that Toyota did design a control computer that is compliant but refuesed for no apparent reason to install it in their Camry in Europe?), no auto shows / mags noticed?

It's a little hard to believe.

I think with a serious issue like this Toyota need to come clean about which standards they meet. If they don't meet the IEC standard, they they need to disclose their standard to expert scrutiny.

I have found that it is actually very hard to meet these standards, and engineering to that standard is a highly complex and costly business.

I think we will all have to stay tuned with an open mind. As I said before I doubt this is a simple problem. In my view it is much more likely to turn out to be a complex hardware/software bug, as it was in all the European incidents. They had to pay the penalty of being first with this technology. With the cost of gas there, you can see why. Fuel economy is always front and center in most European's vehicle purchases.

Toyota do have cars in Europe but they are different models largely.

 

[lsiberian]

So if I understand the claim of the OP: Toyota, the world's third largest car maker, has given up billions in revenue because it is unable or unwilling to solve a technical problem that every other car-maker selling in Europe (Opel, Ford, Fiat, BMW, VW, Mercedes, etc) has shown no signifigant issue with?

Also, no auto shows, despite something as grandiose as pulling their cars (and am I to understand that Toyota did design a control computer that is compliant but refuesed for no apparent reason to install it in their Camry in Europe?), no auto shows / mags noticed?

It's a little hard to believe.

They have had some management issues in recent years. But a new person took over and looks to be fixing stuff. This is probably one of the items.

 

[lsiberian]

I think with a serious issue like this Toyota need to come clean about which standards they meet. If they don't meet the IEC standard, they they need to disclose their standard to expert scrutiny.

I have found that it is actually very hard to meet these standards, and engineering to that standard is a highly complex and costly business.

I think we will all have to stay tuned with an open mind. As I said before I doubt this is a simple problem. In my view it is much more likely to turn out to be a complex hardware/software bug, as it was in all the European incidents. They had to pay the penalty of being first with this technology. With the cost of gas there, you can see why. Fuel economy is always front and center in most European's vehicle purchases.

Software bug's are rarely complex. The problem is finding them is like finding a needle in a haystack. And some of them are simply unsolvable without an entire redesign. My guess is they finally found the cause or they still don't know and are using this as a stalling tactic.

 

[TLS Guy]

Software bug's are rarely complex. The problem is finding them is like finding a needle in a haystack. And some of them are simply unsolvable without an entire redesign. My guess is they finally found the cause or they still don't know and are using this as a stalling tactic.

I concur totally with that assessment.

 

[JerryLove]

I think with a serious issue like this Toyota need to come clean about which standards they meet. If they don't meet the IEC standard, they they need to disclose their standard to expert scrutiny.

Sure, but to remove their best-selling vehicle from the market for 6 years when severl of their other vehicles have correct software?

It might be a hard fix, but it's not "billions of dollars" hard.

I have found that it is actually very hard to meet these standards, and engineering to that standard is a highly complex and costly business.

Which might explain Rhino motors having trouble: but we are discussing the third largest automaker in the world, their most popular car, for more than a half-decade? A standard that literally scores of other models do meet?

It's not that a bug crept in unnotioced I have trouble with: it's the idea that:
1) It was known.
2) It costs them huge sums of money for having pulled the Camry for
3) more than half a decade.