Rotel 1068, Outlaw 990, Anthem avm20 etc.

[bigbang]

Need a pre/pro for 5.1 and two channel.

Bass management for individual speakers would be nice.

I've no use for HDMI, or stereo enhancement modes.

I do require good 2 channel playback.

I'll be buying used, so returning is not an option, and no one in the area carries any of the above.

Any suggestions?

 

[whubbard]

I did a whole lot of research on this before going eventually choosing 2.1 audio.

I would go with the Outlaw 900. Its pretty amazing. You can get it Online from there site. GREAT value.

Now what I don't understand is why you want a 7.1 channel pre/pro. seems like you have a 5.1 setup...

 

[bigbang]

My 5.1 pre is dying a slow death. I don't want/need 7.1 but like the features of the units.

Are there 5.1 options out there that have the same features?

 

[whubbard]

Wow,
I thought that there would have to be a good one out there, but I came up empty.

I would go with the Outlaw. Its really an amazing pre/pro for the price.

 

[arftech]

Need a pre/pro for 5.1 and two channel.

Bass management for individual speakers would be nice.

I've no use for HDMI, or stereo enhancement modes.

I do require good 2 channel playback.

I'll be buying used, so returning is not an option, and no one in the area carries any of the above.

Any suggestions?

I recommend either Emotiva's DMC-1 or MMC-1. Both units are amazing values and they both have audiophile sound! After all, that is what matters right?

All the best,

Al

 

[Steve.]

For sound quality my vote goes to the AVM 20, they can be had for short money if you are look around. Audiogon has a few AVM 20s and there are two AVM2s on Videogon.

 

[davidtwotrees]

I'm assuming you're on a budget as you mention used. Those Anthems look nice, but they are loaded with "stuff" from the looks of it and you sound like an audiophile type who is into the less is more philosophy. I bought my prepro because it was simple, compact, easy to use, and had YBA as it's designer which says a bit in the music world. Audio Refinement Pre2Dsp PrePro.
It has a little bass management. 5.1 DTS, DDII, HT bypass for 2 channel. And is completely transparent. The remote is small and easy to use. SACD/DVDA.
Here is a link to one on Audiogon for $650. Pre2Dsp
Also, the sister site, Videogon, has about five more of these for sale if you don't like the silver......I have the black.

 

[TLS Guy]

Need a pre/pro for 5.1 and two channel.

Bass management for individual speakers would be nice.

I've no use for HDMI, or stereo enhancement modes.

I do require good 2 channel playback.

I'll be buying used, so returning is not an option, and no one in the area carries any of the above.

Any suggestions?

I have used a Rotel 1098 for almost two years. I think it fits your bill, although the current model will switch 3 HDMI inputs.

You can make any input two or multichannel.

I find the set up very straight forward and intuitive. You can assign to the record outputs any input you want and listen to a different input I find this very useful.

I think the bass management is the best I know of. You can set the speakers in pairs. Obviously the center and sub is individual. Any pair can be set to large or small. If all are set to large then you have the option of having just the LFE channel sent to the sub or sending a portion of the bass from all channels to sub as well as the LFE.

None of these Rotel audio visual pre amps decode Dolby True HD yet. That will be an issue if you eventually want to play HD video discs and get the benefit of the new lossless compression codec.

I use my system mainly for music. I can give the Rotel a high recommendation on audio quality.

Here is the Rotel in my system.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2424008#127077469

 

[bigbang]

Thanks for all the input everyone.

After some investigating, I'll probably go with something that has hdmi.

Still don't need a lot of "modes"

TLS guy, once you select the pairs, can you select the crossover point for each pair on the 1098?

I will eventually want to play HD or bluray discs. Will there be regular 5.1 available on those discs? I really don't care about any "improvements" on movie soundtracks. I'll never do more than 5.1 and currently don't even use the .1 sub.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for all the input everyone.

After some investigating, I'll probably go with something that has hdmi.

Still don't need a lot of "modes"

TLS guy, once you select the pairs, can you select the crossover point for each pair on the 1098?

I will eventually want to play HD or bluray discs. Will there be regular 5.1 available on those discs? I really don't care about any "improvements" on movie soundtracks. I'll never do more than 5.1 and currently don't even use the .1 sub.

No you can't set the crossover frequency separately to each pair. There is only one LFE channel, so I don't see how you could do this. There is only one point to set the crossover to the sub or subs. However you can set any pair to small or large. Any small pair will have bass below the crossover point sent to the sub.

Rotel do have a different view of bass management, and one with which I agree. They recommend that whenever possible all speakers be set to large. There are then two options. Option one, the sub only receives the LFE channel and no bass from any other channel. Option two is a setting called max. This is only available if all speakers are set to large. Then a portion of the bass of all speakers will be sent to the sub in addition to the LFE channel. They favor this as the optimal setting. In my system I agree whole heartedly.

I personally believe, and I know this is not a popular view, that all speakers in a multichannel set up should be able to have decent reach into the 40 Hz range, or at least not be stressed by handling a full range signal. For SACD the rear speakers should probably reach below 40 HZ. More about that later.

Now truth in advertising. My system is highly atypical, and there is no commercial system remotely similar. It is hard for other members to get their hands round its deign concept and execution.

Here is the picture and details. It is a 7.1 system that has a total of 1.7 KW of audio power from 14 amplifier channels.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2424008#127077317

First the left and right speakers. The MTM array with the two 6.5 inch magnesium alloy cones and tweeter are in a TL with an F3 of 44 Hz. These act as the left and right speakers, and are set to large. The power is 240 watts to each.

Now the bass lines have an F3 of 27 HZ. Each contains two 10 inch magnesium cone woofers. Each 10 inch woofer is connected to a 100 watt amp. The upper woofer is fed a signal from the front left right via an electronic crossover that takes the bass all the way down but has a correction for the diffraction loss of the 6.5 inch bass mids. The lower 10 inch woofer receives the bass from the Rotel crossover set at 100 Hz, and of course a portion of the bass from the other channels. The drivers are from the SEAS Exel range of drivers.

The center speaker contains two SEAS coaxial drivers. Only the lower driver has the tweeter connected. The crossover is passive. The top driver is fed from an electronic crossover the diffraction correction and the bass all the way down. It is a small TL design with an F3 of 47 Hz. Each driver is fed from a 100 watt amp. This speaker is set to large.

The rears are minimal ripple closed box with 2.5 way passive crossover including diffraction compensation. The F3 is 53 Hz second order roll off. The drivers are Dynaudio. Each is driven by a 100 watt amp. The speakers are set to large.

The rear backs are dual TL design. They are biamped. The lower lines have an F3 of 35 Hz and each contains two KEF B 139s. The upper line is a three way passive using Dynaudio cone M75 and Dynaudio midrange domes and tweeters. Each speaker is powered by two 100 watt amps. These speakers are set to large. The speakers are voiced to the space.

Now back to SACD. I don't know of a preamp that decodes DSP. So the SACD player outputs an analog signal. In the Rotel, and I think this is usual, this is handled as pass through except for volume. None of my classical SACDs have a sub channel. They are either two, three or five channel. The Rotel outputs the rear channels to the center back speakers not the rears (side), which is correct for SACD. There is no output for a sub. I have a switch that disconnects the Rotel sub output and puts the amps for the two lower 10 inch woofers in the left/front lines in parallel, and feeds them both the signal from the external electronic crossover of the front left right speakers.

So when I listen to the SACD of the Klais organs of Cologne Cathedral the rear divisions come in full force.

I think the correct set up for playing SACD is problematic. I have found that this arrangement works very well, but I'm curious to know how others handle it.

I have been very pleased with the performance neutrality and realism of this set up. It is very very close to being there. And the rig is not all fussy as to program.

As you can tell, I have an antipathy to separate subs, and favor an integrated approach. Garry Gallo's ref. 3s take a slightly similar approach in that the woofers in his left rights have dual voice coils. One voice coil of each woofer, can be fed the LFE channel from a separate amp. So he has an integrated system. However I did mine first.

I go into this at length, as the Rotel bass management is just right for my needs, but yours may be different.

 

[3db]

No you can't set the crossover frequency separately to each pair. There is only one LFE channel, so I don't see how you could do this. There is only one point to set the crossover to the sub or subs. However you can set any pair to small or large. Any small pair will have bass below the crossover point sent to the sub.

Rotel do have a different view of bass management, and one with which I agree. They recommend that whenever possible all speakers be set to large. There are then two options. Option one, the sub only receives the LFE channel and no bass from any other channel. Option two is a setting called max. This is only available if all speakers are set to large. Then a portion of the bass of all speakers will be sent to the sub in addition to the LFE channel. They favor this as the optimal setting. In my system I agree whole heartedly.

I personally believe, and I know this is not a popular view, that all speakers in a multichannel set up should be able to have decent reach into the 40 Hz range, or at least not be stressed by handling a full range signal. For SACD the rear speakers should probably reach below 40 HZ. More about that later.

Now truth in advertising. My system is highly atypical, and there is no commercial system remotely similar. It is hard for other members to get their hands round its deign concept and execution.

Here is the picture and details. It is a 7.1 system that has a total of 1.7 KW of audio power from 14 amplifier channels.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2424008#127077317

First the left and right speakers. The MTM array with the two 6.5 inch magnesium alloy cones and tweeter are in a TL with an F3 of 44 Hz. These act as the left and right speakers, and are set to large. The power is 240 watts to each.

Now the bass lines have an F3 of 27 HZ. Each contains two 10 inch magnesium cone woofers. Each 10 inch woofer is connected to a 100 watt amp. The upper woofer is fed a signal from the front left right via an electronic crossover that takes the bass all the way down but has a correction for the diffraction loss of the 6.5 inch bass mids. The lower 10 inch woofer receives the bass from the Rotel crossover set at 100 Hz, and of course a portion of the bass from the other channels. The drivers are from the SEAS Exel range of drivers.

The center speaker contains two SEAS coaxial drivers. Only the lower driver has the tweeter connected. The crossover is passive. The top driver is fed from an electronic crossover the diffraction correction and the bass all the way down. It is a small TL design with an F3 of 47 Hz. Each driver is fed from a 100 watt amp. This speaker is set to large.

The rears are minimal ripple closed box with 2.5 way passive crossover including diffraction compensation. The F3 is 53 Hz second order roll off. The drivers are Dynaudio. Each is driven by a 100 watt amp. The speakers are set to large.

The rear backs are dual TL design. They are biamped. The lower lines have an F3 of 35 Hz and each contains two KEF B 139s. The upper line is a three way passive using Dynaudio cone M75 and Dynaudio midrange domes and tweeters. Each speaker is powered by two 100 watt amps. These speakers are set to large. The speakers are voiced to the space.

Now back to SACD. I don't know of a preamp that decodes DSP. So the SACD player outputs an analog signal. In the Rotel, and I think this is usual, this is handled as pass through except for volume. None of my classical SACDs have a sub channel. They are either two, three or five channel. The Rotel outputs the rear channels to the center back speakers not the rears (side), which is correct for SACD. There is no output for a sub. I have a switch that disconnects the Rotel sub output and puts the amps for the two lower 10 inch woofers in the left/front lines in parallel, and feeds them both the signal from the external electronic crossover of the front left right speakers.

So when I listen to the SACD of the Klais organs of Cologne Cathedral the rear divisions come in full force.

I think the correct set up for playing SACD is problematic. I have found that this arrangement works very well, but I'm curious to know how others handle it.

I have been very pleased with the performance neutrality and realism of this set up. It is very very close to being there. And the rig is not all fussy as to program.

As you can tell, I have an antipathy to separate subs, and favor an integrated approach. Garry Gallo's ref. 3s take a slightly similar approach in that the woofers in his left rights have dual voice coils. One voice coil of each woofer, can be fed the LFE channel from a separate amp. So he has an integrated system. However I did mine first.

I go into this at length, as the Rotel bass management is just right for my needs, but yours may be different.

You are forgetting one thing TLS. You have an unusual set-up compared to say 99% of us. Most of our centers, and surrounds won't play 40 Hz so the bass management that Rotel is employing won't work very well for us. Most of us are in the commercial way.

 

[Swerd]

I suggest a used B&K Ref 30 or a newer Ref 50.

My brother has a Ref 30 that amazed me with its bass management capabilities. If I remember correctly, you can select the frequencies of the subwoofer-to-speaker crossovers and the slopes of these crossovers. There is also a digital parametric equalizer that allows you to create notch filters in the 20-200 Hz range to smooth out room bass response. You can select the frequency and the width of these notch filters, and it has test tones in this range so you can figure out what you need. For details, I suggest you read the owner's manual for these preamps.

B&K's sound quality is first rate, and they are made in the USA. Their customer service is said to be very good.

 

[TLS Guy]

You are forgetting one thing TLS. You have an unusual set-up compared to say 99% of us. Most of our centers, and surrounds won't play 40 Hz so the bass management that Rotel is employing won't work very well for us. Most of us are in the commercial way.

My senility has not set in just yet, though others may have a different view. I did not forget what you accused me of forgetting. I stated that my system was atypical, and that the members needs would likely be different to mine.

I fairness to Rotel, you can use very standard bass management, and cut the speakers out at any reasonable frequency. I pointed this out. They also have a logical option that makes good sense to me, if you really want a well integrated speaker system, that really pulls together as a team. I have been very pleased with the Rotel. I don't feel in need of a lot of EQ, and this unit gives me the simplest signal path without a lot of set up. If I need external EQ I have three very capable equalizers available on tap in the studio.

 

[bigbang]

I'll have to check those out! I could use a PEQ and digital would be sweet.

I suggest a used B&K Ref 30 or a newer

Ref 50.

My brother has a Ref 30 that amazed me with its bass management capabilities. If I remember correctly, you can select the frequencies of the subwoofer-to-speaker crossovers and the slopes of these crossovers. There is also a digital parametric equalizer that allows you to create notch filters in the 20-200 Hz range to smooth out room bass response. You can select the frequency and the width of these notch filters, and it has test tones in this range so you can figure out what you need. For details, I suggest you read the owner's manual for these preamps.

B&K's sound quality is first rate, and they are made in the USA. Their customer service is said to be very good.