Right to repair legislation in Minnesota.

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
There is a house bill working its way though the Minnesota House, with a similar senate bill. The Bill is Digital Right to Repair.

I sent a letter to my representatives supporting this bill.

I'm one of your constituents and I'm writing to ask you to support the Fair Repair bills in the House (HF 1048) and Senate (SF 873).
There is a huge problem in not being able to repair equipment.
The problems start with manufacturers not even making available circuit diagrams, let alone a service manual.
This results in good equipment getting trashed.
It makes most equipment non fixable.
It has put most repair centers out of business already.
I keep a lot of test equipment here, but it is generally only possible to service vintage equipment.
There was a time when the circuit was included in the user manual. Service manuals and parts used to be easily obtainable and actually in most cases still are for older equipment.
It is a disgrace that I can service gear 20 or more years old, but not a unit a year old out of warranty.
This I'm certain did not happen by accident, but by intent.
I strongly support this bill.
Strangely, it strongly mirrors a recent law passed in France.
Please support this timely legislation.
Best Regards, Mark Carter MD.

I would urge any members from Minnesota to write in support. One of my sons has already written in support.

I think this if it passes will have to go nation wide. I don't think they could just provide a service manual or circuit diagrams to Minnesotans.

The bill also covers making information available to owners like myself.

I have fielded a number of posts over the years, and have had a strong sense that a perfectly repairable unit was going to the recycling center because there is just no way to really offer service. I would have liked to have helped some members out, as I can't access a circuit diagram, let alone a service manual. This is a disgraceful and unacceptable situation. It is so far removed from the ethics in the industry when I grew up it totally shameful.

So if any other of you outside Minnesota want to support this, please go ahead.
 
Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
while I sympathize with ur sentiment; can this be really legislated? I would hope the marketplace would wean out the weasels, via site's like this and word of mouth, naturally. I have no problem with local/state/federal taking the lead on issues of health & safety, utilities and some that don't come to mind right now but I think they would be pushing the boundaries legally on matters such as this.

good luck with ur campaign and let us know the outcome.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
while I sympathize with ur sentiment; can this be really legislated? I would hope the marketplace would wean out the weasels, via site's like this and word of mouth, naturally. I have no problem with local/state/federal taking the lead on issues of health & safety, utilities and some that don't come to mind right now but I think they would be pushing the boundaries legally on matters such as this.

good luck with ur campaign and let us know the outcome.
I could not disagree with you more. It is legislated for cars. The same problem was occurring. The cars could not be fixed by independent shops or their owners. So the universal OBD codes became mandatory and the car companies have to support the independent shops and car owners. I always carry an OBD scanner in my glove compartment.

Now take boats. The OBD legislation does not apply. It is a nightmare for the independent shops. Each manufacturer has their own codes and scanners. Outlay is thousands of dollars per engine manufacturer. A lot of these engines are in fact car engines made by GM, however no OBD codes which there should be.

Without legislation companies do not treat customers fairly. I can assure you that I have tried to just get a circuit manual out of today's electronics manufacturers and they don't play ball. If that ethic existed when my beautiful vintage equipment was bought, I would not have it now. I absolutely should have a right to obtain a service manual for electronics I purchase, and company support, and so should independent shops.

The independents can't even get that. So we have company warranty service centers, usually across several states. They do warranty work of variable quality. After warranty the customer is usually priced right out of the market.

I'm constantly answering posts here about relatively new equipment failing and having to tell a customer to recycle, because I know darn well the unit can not be fixed at reasonable cost and without a huge hassle.

The only thing wrong with this legislation is that it should be Federal.

France by the way has just passed similar, but more far reaching legislation.

This is something requiring everyone's support. Unfortunately these days, companies seldom to the right thing by their customers unless forced.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I could not disagree with you more. It is legislated for cars. The same problem was occurring. The cars could not be fixed by independent shops or their owners. So the universal OBD codes became mandatory and the car companies have to support the independent shops and car owners. I always carry an OBD scanner in my glove compartment.

Now take boats. The OBD legislation does not apply. It is a nightmare for the independent shops. Each manufacturer has their own codes and scanners. Outlay is thousands of dollars per engine manufacturer. A lot of these engines are in fact car engines made by GM, however no OBD codes which there should be.

Without legislation companies do not treat customers fairly. I can assure you that I have tried to just get a circuit manual out of today's electronics manufacturers and they don't play ball. If that ethic existed when my beautiful vintage equipment was bought, I would not have it now. I absolutely should have a right to obtain a service manual for electronics I purchase, and company support, and so should independent shops.

The independents can't even get that. So we have company warranty service centers, usually across several states. They do warranty work of variable quality. After warranty the customer is usually priced right out of the market.

I'm constantly answering posts here about relatively new equipment failing and having to tell a customer to recycle, because I know darn well the unit can not be fixed at reasonable cost and without a huge hassle.

The only thing wrong with this legislation is that it should be Federal.

France by the way has just passed similar, but more far reaching legislation.

This is something requiring everyone's support. Unfortunately these days, companies seldom to the right thing by their customers unless forced.
One of the problems with this is that the price of a car is far greater than that of a TV, AVR, BD player, etc. While most people don't get their equipment without paying for it, it's not as big of a financial hit when it goes bad after the warranty is over and extended warranties ARE offered & available. Also, people still demand lower prices and with that, comes lower quality for less money because time has allowed the initial investment to be amortized/each successive generation of parts becomes cheaper.

How much can the cost of a given piece of equipment rise to cover the cost of replacement parts and manuals (paper, disc or digital file) before people balk at the purchase price?

Who will be authorized to service the equipment, how will they be trained and who will monitor/administer the warranty program?

How will existing service centers handle the increase in equipment that comes in for repair? A small shop will quickly become inundated and if they need additional techs, the hiring process takes the owners/managers/one man operators off of the bench.

What is an acceptable turn-around time if the parts are in stock or can be received quickly? One week? Two weeks? What if the parts are back-ordered (whether real, or artificially)? Should the re-seller be required to provide a temporary replacement? The manufacturer? That usually didn't happen before, but people use the AVR/receiver as the hub for their whole system and that can cover the whole house, unlike the past, when people had a small system in each area.

Don't expect the re-sellers to be in favor of being required to provide a backup piece- many of us don't stock inventory because:

It ties up a lot of money,
Floor-planning costs a lot of money,
Electronics distributors won't want to stock more to provide loaners
It takes time to remove and reinstall a temporary unit and repeat this when the other has been repaired and if our schedule is full, this will cause delays,
Manufacturers don't pay us to support their equipment now, I seriously doubt they'll start at this point without the expense causing other problems.

I know Wisconsin had an organization for electronic servicers- Minnesota may have one, too.

I absolutely agree that the manufacturers are wrong to make their equipment un-serviceable, but the sad fact is that this stuff is a commodity. The scale of the industry and the complexity of the equipment have grown so much that the cost to implement this would be substantial and if one agency is tasked with its administration, I don't see it gong well. NARDA used to be the organization that oversaw it before and it tended to work pretty well, but warranty labor rates rarely met the shop rate.

I think you might also send this letter to the FTC.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Your example of the marine industry hits home with me too, because I worked as a service tech for two dealers and I can tell you with absolute certainty that most boat dealers don't look at qualified techs, parts or supplies as an asset. They don't want to send anyone to training because they're afraid the tech(s) will leave as soon as someone offers more money. Techs don't make enough for this line to be seen as a career, regardless of the UTI commercials on TV. Also, with groups like Genmar and others that own many brands and give preferential treatment to dealers that carry more of their lines, it's hard for a smaller/independent dealer to compete.

FYI, pre-2006, most of the larger EFI inboard/stern-drive GM engines used a diagnostic system that was similar to OBDI, but then, the EPA an CARB made enough noise that catalytic converters and O2 sensors were needed in order to meet emission regulations and along with these, came a new scanning method, hardware and software. If you want to diagnose most of the new engines, Diacom and other companies make/sell the software and parts/cables for the various engine systems.

I'm still active on the boat owner's forum for a ski/wake boarding boat manufacturer and from what I see, none of the other competing manufacturers have their ducks in the appropriate rows, either. The number of dealers for each brand is small, so they only authorize THEIR dealers to work on the boats and when someone lives in the area between dealers, it can take a day just haul the boat in for service. This, and the inability of the dealers to diagnose problems that tend to be electrical/electronic have caused people with absolutely no clue or ability to jump headfirst into the engine and accessories on boats that start at $75K, yet they wouldn't dream of attempting this on a $20K car or truck, even though the process is the same. Then, they go online and tell everyone that the manufacturer makes lousy products, even when the problem stems form a part that as out-sourced.

What I saw at the first training session astounded me. People who had been working on boats and engines for decades (and who were successful when the system was very simple) were dumb-founded by a Bosch-style relay. Then, when it came to testing sensors, determining a problem caused by bad terminations/loose or dirty grounds and other reasons for voltage drop, they were unable to find the cause using the standard voltage drop test or make any calculations using Ohm's Law. Almost none of the others had much, if any, electronic background and that really put them behind a rock. The trainers made it as basic as possible while still providing the knowledge, but from the comments I have read since '03, when I joined the forum, many dealers aren't current in their training.

People ask why boat service isn't like car service and don't understand the don't sell enough boats to make it possible or necessary to have as many service shops.

Q- Do you know how to make a small fortune in the marine industry?
A- You start with a large one.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
You are right on about the boat industry. The problem is I get the call when the techs are stumped, and last year that included an excavator, that refused to move!

I think the situation is unacceptable. You really have to dig for info.

The French legislation also addresses life of the units.

All this electronic gear, is polluting the planet fast. There really is not way to really handle all this toxic junk. Ship it to Africa and forget it is the mantra.

You will see I do not get involved with the dime a dozen posts here, What piece of crap can by for $X?

It does not have to be that way. This is something Sir John Dyson bangs on about. I use his products, he has excellent on line parts service, and his equipment is easy to get parts for, repair and maintain. It is 15 years for his Vac here now.

That's the way to go. Pay a bit more up front sure, but the customer gains handsomely in the end.

The wasteful approach and the toxic waste piles do need the attention of legislators.

Probably the worst example here is those Sub plate amps. It does not have to be that way, for little more money those amps could easily last 30 to 40 years and should. How many have we sent to the dump is the last 10 years. I'm past counting. Not only that a lot of these have come close to burning the house down. What a disgrace!
 
c.coyle

c.coyle

Audioholic Intern
It's all market economics. There is little consumer demand for long lasting, repairable electronics. Consumers want low prices.

There is nothing stopping a manufacturer from marketing, for example, a repairable amplifier with discrete, non-proprietary components, requiring basic tools and test equipment to service. But such a product would cost more than a throw away equivalent with the same specs and features, and it would not sell. A bottom-of-the-line Kenwood KA-3500 cost about $450 U.S. in 1977. That's over $1,800 in 2015.

Consumers by and large (those of us on forums like this are not mass market consumers) are not willing to pay more up front in return for the prospect of a unit lasting longer.

Legislation of this type for non-essential products is a bad idea. This is not a knock at the OP, but people always want government out of their lives, unless and until it suits them to get government involved.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
You are right on about the boat industry. The problem is I get the call when the techs are stumped, and last year that included an excavator, that refused to move!

I think the situation is unacceptable. You really have to dig for info.

The French legislation also addresses life of the units.

All this electronic gear, is polluting the planet fast. There really is not way to really handle all this toxic junk. Ship it to Africa and forget it is the mantra.

You will see I do not get involved with the dime a dozen posts here, What piece of crap can by for $X?

It does not have to be that way. This is something Sir John Dyson bangs on about. I use his products, he has excellent on line parts service, and his equipment is easy to get parts for, repair and maintain. It is 15 years for his Vac here now.

That's the way to go. Pay a bit more up front sure, but the customer gains handsomely in the end.

The wasteful approach and the toxic waste piles do need the attention of legislators.

Probably the worst example here is those Sub plate amps. It does not have to be that way, for little more money those amps could easily last 30 to 40 years and should. How many have we sent to the dump is the last 10 years. I'm past counting. Not only that a lot of these have come close to burning the house down. What a disgrace!
When consumers are trained to be amazed & intrigued by each new shiny object, they jump in with their hair on fire, trying to be the first on their block to have the latest and greatest. I think this began after WWII, when everyone thought they SHOULD have everything possible. Some showed restraint, but so many have just been the victims of advertising and tried it all, in their attempt to have it all, rather than what works best, will last a while and not become obsolete. Oops! I said the magic word- people have been complaining about 'planned obsolescence' for decades, yet people don't listen.

They regulate everything else, but I suspect they're as stupid about wanting the newest things as anyone else. Make it to last, make it to be reliable and make it do what's needed, not what they tell us we need (3d, etc).

Bells and whistles are great, if you want bells and whistles (to paraphrase a line from Citizen Kane). They tell us that the newest is the best, but it's usually not.

Written, while listening to 20+ year old LPs on a 30+ year old turntable, sounding far better than ever.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
It's all market economics. There is little consumer demand for long lasting, repairable electronics. Consumers want low prices.

There is nothing stopping a manufacturer from marketing, for example, a repairable amplifier with discrete, non-proprietary components, requiring basic tools and test equipment to service. But such a product would cost more than a throw away equivalent with the same specs and features, and it would not sell. A bottom-of-the-line Kenwood KA-3500 cost about $450 U.S. in 1977. That's over $1,800 in 2015.

Consumers by and large (those of us on forums like this are not mass market consumers) are not willing to pay more up front in return for the prospect of a unit lasting longer.

Legislation of this type for non-essential products is a bad idea. This is not a knock at the OP, but people always want government out of their lives, unless and until it suits them to get government involved.
I think there's more demand than some believe because people have all but given up finding it. Look at how bad customer service is- it's that way because we allow it to be and do nothing about it.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
The consumer electronics industry exists on new innovations. One innovation is barely introduced to the marketplace and a new, improved version has already been announced. Our participation in this forum shows how willing we are to accept this. So, it looks like the consumer simply gets what he asks for.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The consumer electronics industry exists on new innovations. One innovation is barely introduced to the marketplace and a new, improved version has already been announced. Our participation in this forum shows how willing we are to accept this. So, it looks like the consumer simply gets what he asks for.
But is that an innate response, or a conditioned response? Telling people to avoid new things in this industry is shooting myself in the foot, but completely adopting the latest medium and replacing the old with new is a short-sighted view, IMO. I was never into cassettes as much as many, I had an open reel machine for awhile but didn't use it much and I still have ALL of my vinyl. I have a few BluRay discs but for most HD viewing, I steam, rather than spend a lot on discs because at some point, they'll be gone and unneeded.

Since a lot of my albums can be hard to find on CD, I found that I wanted to listen to them. I had an AVR with phono input, but the sensitivity was so low it barely reached the normal listening level of most CDs. I could have bought an outboard preamp, but I have enough little boxes here. Since I bought the new preamp/power amp, I'm enjoying the LPs that I couldn't listen to for so long and am impressed by the sound of some- better than I expected, but memory can't be used as teh reference because it has been so long.

I think the fact that we're asking questions is healthy- if we were to passively accept everything they trowel out, 3d may have taken off.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
But is that an innate response, or a conditioned response? Telling people to avoid new things in this industry is shooting myself in the foot, but completely adopting the latest medium and replacing the old with new is a short-sighted view, IMO. I was never into cassettes as much as many, I had an open reel machine for awhile but didn't use it much and I still have ALL of my vinyl. I have a few BluRay discs but for most HD viewing, I steam, rather than spend a lot on discs because at some point, they'll be gone and unneeded.

Since a lot of my albums can be hard to find on CD, I found that I wanted to listen to them. I had an AVR with phono input, but the sensitivity was so low it barely reached the normal listening level of most CDs. I could have bought an outboard preamp, but I have enough little boxes here. Since I bought the new preamp/power amp, I'm enjoying the LPs that I couldn't listen to for so long and am impressed by the sound of some- better than I expected, but memory can't be used as teh reference because it has been so long.

I think the fact that we're asking questions is healthy- if we were to passively accept everything they trowel out, 3d may have taken off.
At last I seem to have a kindred spirit on these forums!





The middle turntable is 39 years old and the others close to 50. They sound great and work perfectly.

The answer to the obsolescence is to have the firmware and electronics upgradeable. This would require modular construction.

It is insane to have units go out of date because a new codec like Dolby Digital plus is introduced!

Actually the industry is working very hard to kill this avocation. The have pretty much everything the wrong way up right now, and sales of receivers plummet and the customers flock to a smart TV and a sound bar.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
At last I seem to have a kindred spirit on these forums!

The middle turntable is 39 years old and the others close to 50. They sound great and work perfectly.

The answer to the obsolescence is to have the firmware and electronics upgradeable. This would require modular construction.

It is insane to have units go out of date because a new codec like Dolby Digital plus is introduced!

Actually the industry is working very hard to kill this avocation. The have pretty much everything the wrong way up right now, and sales of receivers plummet and the customers flock to a smart TV and a sound bar.
At some point my turntable will become a boat anchor- it's one of the Sony models with their BioTracer servo-controlled tonearm and when those go out, it's toast. It does, however, produce close to the lowest background noise level I have heard from anything below $!000 and that was true when they introduced the models with that function- also, the base is made of a heavy, acoustically inert resin. Receivers, preamps and integrated amps used to have a rumble filter and when I play a slightly warped album, the woofers don't move when the tonearm encounters the warp. My new preamp doesn't have a subsonic filter that I'm aware of.

Pro/commercial audio uses modules- I see no reason these can't. Krell uses amplifier modules and the chassis comes with blank plates to block the opening. This would eliminate the time wasted while the service shop works on them, drastically decrease shipping costs, make repairs a short truck roll for integrators and it might resurrect some of the goodwill lost. Every time I go to manufacturer training, they talk about changing the colors of the connections, the layout and how much easier it is to connect. Those don't matter!

Make it work, make it reliable, make it drive difficult speakers, make it exceed 20-20K without it going cross-eyed and make the modules so they're reasonably-priced. Period!
 

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